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+---- Thread: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? (/Thread-Evangelical-Support-for-Trump-Eroding)
Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - Dill - 10-10-2018
Maybe so. Starting with women
Beto O’Rourke May Benefit From an Unlikely Support Group: White Evangelical Women
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/us/politics/texas-beto-orourke-evangelicals-women.html?fallback=0&recId=1BOgHdW9GxkniY3550ghKuJIrPN&locked=0&geoContinent=NA&geoRegion=PA&recAlloc=contextual-bandit-home-geo&geoCountry=US&blockId=midterm-elections&imp_id=427747928&action=click&module=Election%202018&pgtype=Homepage
To Democrats nationwide, who have largely written off white evangelical voters, it also sends a signal — not just for the midterms but also for the 2020 presidential campaign — that there are female, religious voters who are open to some of their party’s candidates.
The women, who are all in their 30s, described Mr. O’Rourke as providing a stark moral contrast to Mr. Trump, whose policies and behavior they see as fundamentally anti-Christian, especially separating immigrant children from their parents at the border, banning many Muslim refugees and disrespecting women.
The women were especially frustrated with pastors in their own backyard, like Robert Jeffress, who leads the nearby First Baptist Dallas and who is one of Mr. Trump’s most vocal supporters.
“You are doing so much damage,” added Sarah Bailey, as if Mr. Jeffress were in the room.
“He’s a pastor, so I should identify with what he says,’’ Ms. Bailey said. “That’s how I grew up. For me, it was finally knowing that it was O.K. to push back.”
At times, however, their support feels hush-hush. A few of their other friends who support Mr. O’Rourke are married to men who support Mr. Cruz and have refused to let them speak about it publicly. One friend said she wanted to protect her marriage, and worried she’d be “crucified, burned at the stake” if people found out, Ms. Clarke said.
“My hope would be that women in similar places as us would feel liberated from the expectation that you’re just doing the same thing you’ve always done, because it’s safe, because it’s what your pastor is telling you to do, or your husband,” Ms. Clarke said. “We have to own it.”
Then there is the Race issue:
Is Trump Racist? Is There a Double Standard? California Pastors Debate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/02/us/politics/roseanne-barr-california-pastors-trump.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article
Three evangelical pastors from Fresno — a city that is half Hispanic, a third non-Hispanic white, and a tenth black — met Thursday morning to talk with The New York Times. ... Ms. Barr’s tweet likening a black former aide to President Barack Obama to an ape was undeniably racist, the three pastors agreed. Equally troubling, they said, was Mr. Trump’s lack of condemnation of it.
Mr. Loera voted for Mr. Trump in 2016, and supports many of his policies. But on this issue he believes Mr. Trump has let him down.
“I don’t care what Roseanne says,” he said, seated with the other pastors on blue chairs in the foyer of his church. “As a veteran, as a citizen, I care what my president says. It is getting really hard to defend him.”
He added that Mr. Trump’s response to examples of racism was especially important because the president has aligned himself with evangelicals, who provided him with one of his most important sources of voter support in 2016.
“The bigots are coming out of the closet,” he said, citing episodes like the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., last summer. “They have a person in the presidency that will keep them alive.”
Even Evangelicals supportive of Trump have recognized how defending him has lowered ethical standards.
Shrugging Off Trump Scandals, Evangelicals Look to Rescue G.O.P.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/us/politics/trump-evangelicals-midterm-elections.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article®ion=Footer
“Now even the Christian culture is O.K. with it,” said Jim Daly, the president of Focus on the Family, one of the nation’s largest evangelical groups. “That’s the sadness,” he added. “The next time a Democrat in the presidency has a moral failure, who’s going to be able to say anything?”
But Christian conservatives say Mr. Trump has also more than honored his end of the bargain that brought reluctant members of their ranks along during his presidential campaign. He has begun the process of moving the American Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, won the confirmation of numerous judges and a Supreme Court Justice who seem likely to advance their anti-abortion cause, moved against transgender protections throughout the government, increased the ability of churches to organize politically and personally supported the March for Life.
But maybe not; the bulk of Evangelicals may continue their support:
So far, the decision by most conservative evangelical leaders to double down on their support for Mr. Trump is playing out like most of the other moments when skeptics of the president believed he had finally undermined himself with his base.
A poll released last week by the Public Religion Research Institute found white evangelical approval for Mr. Trump at its highest level ever: 75 percent. Only 22 percent said they had an unfavorable view of the president.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - Dill - 10-10-2018
Rather than create one overly long post, I place some additional links here:
Anti-Trump Evangelicals Are On A Nationwide Bus Tour To Flip Congress
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/flip-congress-bus-gop-midterms_us_5bbb73b0e4b028e1fe3fcc8b
Evangelical Christians who oppose President Donald Trump have launched a cross-country bus tour to help dislodge the Republican Party’s control of Congress during this year’s midterm elections.
Driven by the belief that Republican lawmakers have failed to advocate for core Christian values, the “Vote Common Good” bus tour will hit more than 30 congressional districts where Democratic challengers are hoping to unseat Republican incumbents.
Doug Pagitt, a Minneapolis pastor and the executive director of Vote Common Good, said progressive Christians are disturbed at what they view as Republican lawmakers’ failure to “restrain and resist” the Trump administration’s worst impulses.
“Evangelicals care about the least of these, and I believe them when they say it,” Pagitt told HuffPost, referring to a Bible passage instructing Christians to care for vulnerable groups. “But then they vote for politicians that invoke policies that don’t care for the least of these.”
Pagitt believes many evangelicals are torn between longtime loyalty to the Republican Party and their own personal dismay at GOP policies that contradict the Bible’s call to welcome the stranger and care for the marginalized.
The Tiny Blond Bible Teacher Taking on the Evangelical Political Machine
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/beth-moore-bible-study/568288/
For decades, Moore never broke stride. In the past few years, however, she has felt out of step with the evangelical community. During the 2016 campaign, many of its leaders not only excused Donald Trump’s boorish behavior but painted him as a great defender of Christianity—evangelicals’ “dream president,” in the words of Jerry Falwell Jr. More recently, a series of high-profile pastors have been toppled by accusations of sexual misconduct. The deferential reserve that defined Moore’s career has become harder for her to maintain.
Moore was flying home from a ministry event in October 2016 when she decided to compose the tweets that changed her life. That weekend, she had glimpsed headlines about Donald Trump’s 2005 comments on the now infamous Access Hollywood tape. But it wasn’t until that plane ride, with newspapers and transcripts spread out in front of her, that Moore learned the full extent of it—including the reaction of some Christian leaders who, picking up a common line of spin, dismissed the comments as “locker-room talk.”
“I was like, ‘Oh no. No. No,’ ” Moore told me. “I was so appalled.” Trump’s ugly boasting felt personal to her: Many of her followers have confided to her that they’ve suffered abuse, and Moore herself says she was sexually abused as a small child by someone close to her family—a trauma she has talked about publicly, though never in detail.
The next day, Moore wrote a few short messages to her nearly 900,000 followers. “Wake up, Sleepers, to what women have dealt with all along in environments of gross entitlement & power,” she said in one tweet. “Are we sickened? Yes. Surprised? NO.” Like other women, Moore wrote, she had been “misused, stared down, heckled, talked naughty to.” As pastors took to the airwaves to defend Trump, she was trying to understand how “some Christian leaders don’t think it’s that big a deal.”
Moore believes that an evangelical culture that demeans women, promotes sexism, and disregards accusations of sexual abuse enabled Trump’s rise.
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One thing this Evangelical resistance (however minimal) suggests is the degree to which Trump's behavior generates ethical crises even in those who support his general goals and SCOTUS picks. Will enough of this resistance really help turn red districts blue though? Also interesting is how GENDERED the Evangelical resistance is. Will enough wives rebel against their husbands?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - michaelsean - 10-10-2018
All of a sudden their literal interpretation of the Bible and belief that the universe is 6000 years old won't be ridiculed.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - fredtoast - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 05:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: All of a sudden their literal interpretation of the Bible and belief that the universe is 6000 years old won't be ridiculed.
Of course it will.
WTF are you talking about?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - michaelsean - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 05:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Of course it will.
WTF are you talking about?
I don’t know just writing random words.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - Nately120 - 10-10-2018
I will admit it is quite baffling that people who literally expect to eventually meet up with Jesus Christ face to face choose to support this guy.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - Dill - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 05:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: All of a sudden their literal interpretation of the Bible and belief that the universe is 6000 years old won't be ridiculed.
Would ridicule drive them back into the Trump camp? It seems home to people who difficulty adjusting to modernity, people who feel "laughed at" by Hollywood liberals.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - Dill - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 07:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I will admit it is quite baffling that people who literally expect to eventually meet up with Jesus Christ face to face choose to support this guy.
One of the many intriguing aspects of Trump support.
It seems though that for some Evangelicals, the racism and misogyny are just too much. From the articles above, it sounds like some Evangelical woman are experiencing a great deal of internal dissonance as obedience to the husband and pastor conflicts with what the Good Book teaches, or at least the Jesus parts. The Devil is urging them to rebel against male authority.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - bfine32 - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 07:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I will admit it is quite baffling that people who literally expect to eventually meet up with Jesus Christ face to face choose to support this guy.
Is it your assertion that they choose to support the candidate without sin or just not support anyone?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - GMDino - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 07:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I will admit it is quite baffling that people who literally expect to eventually meet up with Jesus Christ face to face choose to support this guy.
I find it baffling that the same people who claim to believe in an all-loving god sign up to kill strangers because some guys in suits voted for it (well voted in MOST cases).
Then they say "there are not atheists in foxholes".
But they can always say they were "sorry" and "not perfect".
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - michaelsean - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 08:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: I find it baffling that the same people who claim to believe in an all-loving god sign up to kill strangers because some guys in suits voted for it (well voted in MOST cases).
Then they say "there are not atheists in foxholes".
But they can always say they were "sorry" and "not perfect".
The military?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - GMDino - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 08:47 PM)michaelsean Wrote: The military?
They would fit that description.
"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty clear.
How they justify it to themselves is baffling to me.
Of course I don't get the people who kill because they say their god told them too either.
Maybe I just don't understand people who kill?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - michaelsean - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: They would fit that description.
"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty clear.
How they justify it to themselves is baffling to me.
Of course I don't get the people who kill because they say their god told them too either.
Maybe I just don't understand people who kill?
So you are baffled by say people who fought to stop the Nazis?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - GMDino - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:17 PM)michaelsean Wrote: So you are baffled by say people who fought to stop the Nazis?
All of them.
Not that they didn't do the right thing in my opinion.
But you have people who willing kill people they have never met and have no idea if they are good or bad while praying to their god who loves everyone, even the bad people.
It is an interesting dichotomy is it not?
Preach love on one hand and go kill the bastages with the other because you were told to by some guys in suits.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - michaelsean - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: All of them.
Not that they didn't do the right thing in my opinion.
But you have people who willing kill people they have never met and have no idea if they are good or bad while praying to their god who loves everyone, even the bad people.
It is an interesting dichotomy is it not?
Preach love on one hand and go kill the bastages with the other because you were told to by some guys in suits.
Sometimes, at our level of enlightenment, there is no choice. I’m sure there are other civilizations, much older than ours, somewhere in the universe that have zero violence. Where a being wouldn’t defend himself even if attacked with the realization that he/she is much more than the body they inhabit. Very few of us are there. So few in fact that we still talk about one from 2,000 years ago. It’s not just passivism. It’s beyond that.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - GMDino - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:34 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Sometimes, at our level of enlightenment, there is no choice. I’m sure there are other civilizations, much older than ours, somewhere in the universe that have zero violence. Where a being wouldn’t defend himself even if attacked with the realization that he/she is much more than the body they inhabit. Very few of us are there. So few in fact that we still talk about one from 2,000 years ago. It’s not just passivism. It’s beyond that.
Self defense is one thing.
I suppose one could argue that going to war is self defense if attacked.
Still, a person has live balance the "I shall not kill" with "I must kill". It's strange.
The guys that dropped the atomic bomb had no idea if they were killing bad guys or innocent people.
The men in Vietnam that destroyed a village killing everyone in didn't do it in self-defense.
But I bet a bunch of them had crosses around their necks.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - Nately120 - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 07:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Is it your assertion that they choose to support the candidate without sin or just not support anyone?
My assertion is that reasoning such as this, and the fact that there is no good argument against this rationale, is why religion is open-ended to the point of farce. Everyone sins except two specific Jewish people who supposedly lived over 2000 years ago, ergo Christians should have no issue supporting whomever they wish.
We're all relegated to the bottom of the proverbial piss-bucket no matter what we do. What a great way to think. I don't feel badly voting for Trump because Hillary Clinton, Gary Johson, Jill Stein, and that candidate the most religious person I know voted for because he actually thought voting for Trump was a bad idea are all NOT Jesus or Mary.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - michaelsean - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Self defense is one thing.
I suppose one could argue that going to war is self defense if attacked.
Still, a person has live balance the "I shall not kill" with "I must kill". It's strange.
The guys that dropped the atomic bomb had no idea if they were killing bad guys or innocent people.
The men in Vietnam that destroyed a village killing everyone in didn't do it in self-defense.
But I bet a bunch of them had crosses around their necks.
Certainly there are hypocrites. Klan members literally carry crosses. But I believe there is a level way beyond where we are. Where the beings realize that everyone is literally one. Not we are all the same or we are one in spirit, but actually one. But I’m going way off track.
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - bfine32 - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Self defense is one thing.
I suppose one could argue that going to war is self defense if attacked.
Still, a person has live balance the "I shall not kill" with "I must kill". It's strange.
The guys that dropped the atomic bomb had no idea if they were killing bad guys or innocent people.
The men in Vietnam that destroyed a village killing everyone in didn't do it in self-defense.
But I bet a bunch of them had crosses around their necks.
It's a personal relationship with God; he knows what is in your heart and if your heart is filled with malice to kill then he may not be proud of his child for participating in the act; however, if your heart if full of righteousness then the Lord very well may be pleased.
For instance in Afghanistan I saw the affects of a young girl having the nerve to try to go to school. She was mutilated and killed and her family's house was attacked. I cannot fathom the thought of a God that would not want to use me as an instrument to work to stop this behavior.
The men in suits cannot give you the keys to the kingdom, any works you do in your life cannot give you the keys to the kingdom, and pure thoughts cannot give you the keys to the kingdom. Your personal relationship with the lord and your profession of faith gives you the keys.
So the Soldier, just like the tobacco salesman, bartender, lawyer that defends the guilty, and the gun manufacturer; is like everyone else.
Would you kill someone that was attempting to kill your family?
RE: Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding? - bfine32 - 10-10-2018
(10-10-2018, 09:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: My assertion is that reasoning such as this, and the fact that there is no good argument against this rationale, is why religion is open-ended to the point of farce. Everyone sins except two specific Jewish people who supposedly lived over 2000 years ago, ergo Christians should have no issue supporting whomever they wish.
We're all relegated to the bottom of the proverbial piss-bucket no matter what we do. What a great way to think.
Speak for yourself when you talk about piss-bucket relegation. I feel blessed every day