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+---- Thread: Brexit Bungle (/Thread-Brexit-Bungle)
Brexit Bungle - Belsnickel - 12-10-2018
Things are not going so well for PM May over in the UK, right now. They have failed to come up with the type of Brexit deal that was promised to the people of the UK. They were supposed to vote on it in the House of Commons, but that has now been delayed.
There has been discussion about another referendum vote, citing people being misinformed about the realities of the situation.
Anyone have any thoughts on all of this?
RE: Brexit Bungle - GMDino - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 01:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Things are not going so well for PM May over in the UK, right now. They have failed to come up with the type of Brexit deal that was promised to the people of the UK. They were supposed to vote on it in the House of Commons, but that has now been delayed.
There has been discussion about another referendum vote, citing people being misinformed about the realities of the situation.
Anyone have any thoughts on all of this?
Can they do that?
I mean if the people voted for it but the government can't do it...can they vote again? And what if they vote FOR it again?
Personally I thought it would be a mess anyway.
RE: Brexit Bungle - Belsnickel - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 02:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: Can they do that?
I mean if the people voted for it but the government can't do it...can they vote again? And what if they vote FOR it again?
Personally I thought it would be a mess anyway.
I'm know expert on British law, but I'm assuming they could. The criticisms of the option say it would be undemocratic, that they voted for it already. The counter to that argument is that the people were misled with inaccurate information.
The issue is, though, that they've already triggered the action with the EU, I believe. That can't just be reversed. They could have to reapply for membership to the EU.
RE: Brexit Bungle - GMDino - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm know expert on British law, but I'm assuming they could. The criticisms of the option say it would be undemocratic, that they voted for it already. The counter to that argument is that the people were misled with inaccurate information.
The issue is, though, that they've already triggered the action with the EU, I believe. That can't just be reversed. They could have to reapply for membership to the EU.
An example of when the "majority" don't know what they are talking about and screw it up for everyone else.
Good thing that doesn't happen here.
RE: Brexit Bungle - hollodero - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm know expert on British law, but I'm assuming they could. The criticisms of the option say it would be undemocratic, that they voted for it already. The counter to that argument is that the people were misled with inaccurate information.
The issue is, though, that they've already triggered the action with the EU, I believe. That can't just be reversed. They could have to reapply for membership to the EU.
At the latter, probably not. They could unilaterally take Brexit back. Says the EU supreme court.
As for a second vote, one argument for it would be that people couldn't know what kind of Brexit deal would be reached. Also, European countries do this quite a bit. Repeating referendums that is.
RE: Brexit Bungle - Belsnickel - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 03:41 PM)hollodero Wrote: At the latter, probably not. They could unilaterally take Brexit back. Says the EU supreme court.
Interesting. I hadn't heard that. Good to know.
(12-10-2018, 03:41 PM)hollodero Wrote: As for a second vote, one argument for it would be that people couldn't know what kind of Brexit deal would be reached. Also, European countries do this quite a bit. Repeating referendums that is.
Yeah, I know it wouldn't be unprecedented, and I am in favor of another referendum. I just have to present the argument I am hearing against it.
RE: Brexit Bungle - bfine32 - 12-10-2018
I fail to see the nuances of the situation. The people voted to leave the EU so leave the EU. How hard was it for us to leave the TPO?
RE: Brexit Bungle - Belsnickel - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 06:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I fail to see the nuances of the situation. The people voted to leave the EU so leave the EU. How hard was it for us to leave the TPO?
The issue is that all signs point to a major hit to the UK economy if they leave the EU. The politicians pushing for Brexit made promises that they couldn't keep with regards to the deal they would strike upon leaving. Now that the people are finding out what Brexit will actually mean, they aren't happy with it.
I'm not sure what you are referring to with TPO, but the US has never been involved in anything like the EU. If anything, the closest thing that we could compare it to in our country would be a state seceding.
RE: Brexit Bungle - bfine32 - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 06:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The issue is that all signs point to a major hit to the UK economy if they leave the EU. The politicians pushing for Brexit made promises that they couldn't keep with regards to the deal they would strike upon leaving. Now that the people are finding out what Brexit will actually mean, they aren't happy with it.
I'm not sure what you are referring to with TPO, but the US has never been involved in anything like the EU. If anything, the closest thing that we could compare it to in our country would be a state seceding.
TPO was that Trans-Pacific trade thingy.
Hell, I wish we could just revote every time a politician doesn't keep a promise. This seems like a slippery slope that I hope we never adopt as a Nation.
**""Folks voted and we don't like they way they voted, so we're going to do it again"
** I can provide no link of anyone actually saying that. Simply my summation of the situation.
RE: Brexit Bungle - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 03:41 PM)hollodero Wrote: At the latter, probably not. They could unilaterally take Brexit back. Says the EU supreme court.
As for a second vote, one argument for it would be that people couldn't know what kind of Brexit deal would be reached. Also, European countries do this quite a bit. Repeating referendums that is.
The EU is a failed experiment, better to get out now. When the whole house of cards collapses dealing with the EU won't be a thing. Italy, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc. are all actively hostile to the EU as it exists. France has shown they have a breaking point as well. You certainly know better than I, but I believe there is considerable anti-EU sentiment in Austria as well. As a free trade zone, it was a good idea. As a United States of Europe it's simply Germany running the show and intimidating the smaller nations.
As for Brexit, it was promised that the results of the referendum would be honored, therefore they need to be. It's interesting that some of the loudest voices for "democracy" are the same people asking for a second vote. How is that democracy? My understanding of the concept is not that you hold a vote as many times as it takes to get the results you want. Quite honestly, a no deal Brexit is the way to go. The United Stats can ease a lot of the economic pressure. The only real sticking point would be the ease of travel, which would be petty as hell for the EU to make difficult on the UK.
RE: Brexit Bungle - GMDino - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 06:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: TPO was that Trans-Pacific trade thingy.
Hell, I wish we could just revote every time a politician doesn't keep a promise. This seems like a slippery slope that I hope we never adopt as a Nation.
**""Folks voted and we don't like they way they voted, so we're going to do it again"
** I can provide no link of anyone actually saying that. Simply my summation of the situation.
We do that every election cycle.
If enough people there vote to have people in that want a revote that would be democracy in action, no?
RE: Brexit Bungle - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 07:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: We do that every election cycle.
Sure we do, but we're talking a referendum, not a politician.
Quote:If enough people there vote to have people in that want a revote that would be democracy in action, no?
Absolutely not. The vote was on a yes/no topic. Whatever your opinions on this issue a clear decision was made. The losing side requesting another vote is absolutely not democracy as it ignores the democratic vote that was already held. Do we keep voting until the "right people" declare that the last vote was actually the democratic one? How about we redo every vote that we don't like the outcome of? You see this exact type of sentiment in the US with the kvetching about the Electoral college and the popular vote. Brexit passed in a fair and free election. Ignoring that vote would make a compete sham of the democratic process.
RE: Brexit Bungle - Belsnickel - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 06:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: TPO was that Trans-Pacific trade thingy.
Ohhhhhhh, the TPP. I thought that might've been what you meant, but I wasn't sure.
(12-10-2018, 06:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell, I wish we could just revote every time a politician doesn't keep a promise. This seems like a slippery slope that I hope we never adopt as a Nation.
**""Folks voted and we don't like they way they voted, so we're going to do it again"
** I can provide no link of anyone actually saying that. Simply my summation of the situation.
This may surprise you, but I don't disagree with you. The people voted as they did and they can live with the consequences. If they aren't happy with them, they can take it out on those that lied to them by not putting them back in office. While it isn't unprecedented to have a referendum "mulligan" over in Europe, it shouldn't happen.
RE: Brexit Bungle - Belsnickel - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The EU is a failed experiment, better to get out now. When the whole house of cards collapses dealing with the EU won't be a thing. Italy, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc. are all actively hostile to the EU as it exists. France has shown they have a breaking point as well. You certainly know better than I, but I believe there is considerable anti-EU sentiment in Austria as well. As a free trade zone, it was a good idea. As a United States of Europe it's simply Germany running the show and intimidating the smaller nations.
I think a lot of this is rooted on misconceptions about the EU, but that's a different argument for another time.
(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As for Brexit, it was promised that the results of the referendum would be honored, therefore they need to be. It's interesting that some of the loudest voices for "democracy" are the same people asking for a second vote. How is that democracy? My understanding of the concept is not that you hold a vote as many times as it takes to get the results you want. Quite honestly, a no deal Brexit is the way to go. The United Stats can ease a lot of the economic pressure. The only real sticking point would be the ease of travel, which would be petty as hell for the EU to make difficult on the UK.
I don't disagree about how the vote should stand. I don't know if the US can absorb as much as you think. The hit to London as the financial center of Europe will be substantial. As to the pettiness of the ease of travel, it may be, but if the rues of the EU are you have to accept these certain conditions to get freedom of movement, and you don't accept those conditions in the deal, then I don't see how you can expect freedom of movement.
RE: Brexit Bungle - bfine32 - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 07:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: We do that every election cycle.
If enough people there vote to have people in that want a revote that would be democracy in action, no?
I suppose you could keep calling for votes until you get the decision you want. Not sure that's Democracy in action though.
RE: Brexit Bungle - hollodero - 12-10-2018
(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The EU is a failed experiment, better to get out now.
That's quite the definitive evaluation.... I disagree with that. It isn't failed, just seriously flawed. But it's not without merits. For starters, we stopped leading devastating wars against each other. Also, there's a certain belief that the problems of the future demand a united response. See climate change, migration, tax policies, defense.(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You certainly know better than I, but I believe there is considerable anti-EU sentiment in Austria as well.
Of course. The EU is a viable scapegoat. And is indeed less than perfect, there's plenty of legit reason for said sentiment.
It's just, going back to closed borders and believing this will end all struggle and sorrow is really naive. And in many cases, there's not much more to it. That and hating bureaucracy and politicians.
(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As a free trade zone, it was a good idea. As a United States of Europe it's simply Germany running the show and intimidating the smaller nations.
That's interesting. I really don't know where this perception stems from. But it seems common. And sure, Germany is a powerful voice and a big spender, their word carries weight. But I don't feel my country is bullied or "intimitated" by them.
(They did intimidate Greece at times maybe, but hey they were spending billions of not their own money.)
(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As for Brexit, it was promised that the results of the referendum would be honored, therefore they need to be. It's interesting that some of the loudest voices for "democracy" are the same people asking for a second vote. How is that democracy?
Well, how is it not. People are free to say no a second time. And things changed a bit, now there's a deal on the table. I wouldn't consider asking a second time undemocratic, when it's literally about asking the people... asking if they are still fine with Brexit, now that they know what it means.
(12-10-2018, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quite honestly, a no deal Brexit is the way to go. The United Stats can ease a lot of the economic pressure. The only real sticking point would be the ease of travel, which would be petty as hell for the EU to make difficult on the UK.
? Right now, they make it difficult on the EU, not the other way round.
And as for working with the US. I don't think that's a particularly compelling alternative right now.
RE: Brexit Bungle - GMDino - 12-11-2018
(12-10-2018, 08:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose you could keep calling for votes until you get the decision you want. Not sure that's Democracy in action though.
We do...every election cycle.
For example this election cycle more Democrats won in the house.
Next cycle voters can decide if that was a good thing or not...if they got want the "want" from the final decisions.
Pretty sure that is democracy.
RE: Brexit Bungle - bfine32 - 12-11-2018
(12-11-2018, 12:22 AM)GMDino Wrote: We do...every election cycle.
For example this election cycle more Democrats won in the house.
Next cycle voters can decide if that was a good thing or not...if they got want the "want" from the final decisions.
Pretty sure that is democracy.
Yes, election cycles are Democracy. It has 0 to do with this issue. One for which you are advocating for.
RE: Brexit Bungle - GMDino - 12-11-2018
(12-11-2018, 12:58 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, election cycles are Democracy. It has 0 to do with this issue. One for which you are advocating for.
Yeah, didn't "advocate" for anything.
I'm asking if enough people get voted in that want to have a second referendum isn't that democracy at work?
Someone suggested that a second vote on Brexit would be wrong because there was already a vote and they should have to live with that.
If no plan is passed and enough people want a second vote there could be one...if they vote in people to do that.
I don't consider it a mulligan or undemocratic. I call it the voters changing their minds and making that known. All legally and done within the normal voting cycles.
RE: Brexit Bungle - bfine32 - 12-11-2018
(12-11-2018, 01:06 AM)GMDino Wrote: Yeah, didn't "advocate" for anything.
I'm asking if enough people get voted in that want to have a second referendum isn't that democracy at work?
Someone suggested that a second vote on Brexit would be wrong because there was already a vote and they should have to live with that.
If no plan is passed and enough people want a second vote there could be one...if they vote in people to do that.
I don't consider it a mulligan or undemocratic. I call it the voters changing their minds and making that known. All legally and done within the normal voting cycles.
Yep, nobody could ever accuse you of advocating for a re-vote. I had 0 idea what I was thinking.