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+--- Thread: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life (/Thread-I-expect-the-coaching-changes-to-give-Dalton-a-new-lease-on-his-Bengals-life)
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 01:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: 5 years for 125 million was the contract I looked at with a simple google search. That equates to 25 mil a year.....Dalton gets around 16, so I was wrong on his salary. Looks like a 9 million a year difference.
Also, Dalton was due 13.9 this season with a chance at 3 mil more if he hit escalators, which I assume he did not hit. So we're back to 11 mil.
http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/273014/bengals-arent-seeking-contract-extension-for-andy-dalton-this-year
You're not really counting the money that LA already paid Derek are you? Derek's contract was unique in that it was front loaded and Andy's is like most others back loaded.
Do yourself a favor don't apply for any GM jobs, you cannot count sunk cost.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 12:32 PM)PhilHos Wrote: My guess is it's due to Carr having 2 years more on his contract than Dalton. Carr playing 'til his contract runs out will cost the Bengals more from this current point than Dalton playing til his contract runs out.
That said, by my math difference still isn't $11 mil, but actually a lot more.
That would only make sense if you figure Andy's going to play for free in 2021 and 2022. Meanwhile DC is under a team friendly contract for those 2 years.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You're not really counting the money that LA already paid Derek are you? Derek's contract was unique in that it was front loaded and Andy's is like most others back loaded.
Do yourself a favor don't apply for any GM jobs, you cannot count sunk cost.
I didn't look at it in depth because I don't really care. I averaged out 5 yrs and 125 mil. You ignored the incentives part of Dalton's contract too. At least I wouldn't have wasted a 1st or even a 7th on Manziel like some folks would have......so there's that.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So it is only $5 million more instead of $11. My point still stands. Why pay more for a QB who is not any better than Dalton?
Carr's career numbers are not any better than Dalton's, but Dalton's ceiling (best season) is higher. Carr is also a fumble machine who has put the ball on the ground almost TWICE as often as Dalton over the last 5 years (45 to 23). Carr has only one rushing TD in his five year career while Dalton has 11 over the same period.
So what exactly is the reason you would agree to trade Dalton for Carr?
Then, there's this.....
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So it is only $5 million more instead of $11. My point still stands. Why pay more for a QB who is not any better than Dalton?
Carr's career numbers are not any better than Dalton's, but Dalton's ceiling (best season) is higher. Carr is also a fumble machine who has put the ball on the ground almost TWICE as often as Dalton over the last 5 years (45 to 23). Carr has only one rushing TD in his five year career while Dalton has 11 over the same period.
So what exactly is the reason you would agree to trade Dalton for Carr?
Your point may "still stand", but it's taking a hell of a beating.
it's telling that you bring up Dalton's best year that happened 4 years ago and hasn't come close to those numbers since; yet Carr just put up a career best season and posted a QB rating Andy have only beaten once in his live and that was about a 1/2 decade ago.
You don't get to use the old "Andy has had it rougher" and I damn sure don't expect you to admit that Carr has actually had it rougher. Dude put up a passer rating of over 93 while getting sacked 51 times. I've been told that's impossible.
The reasons are many: upside and age being among the tops and your "point that still stands" actually works against you as Carr is now on a team friendly contract when Andy will be hitting a contract year in 2 years.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That would only make sense if you figure Andy's going to play for free in 2021 and 2022. Meanwhile DC is under a team friendly contract for those 2 years.
.....and Dalton's isn't? Plus, you have the option to part ways at any time without a cap hit. Carr has a cap hit until 2022, plus his deal goes back up after the 2020 season. Guess someone else shouldn't apply for GM, huh?
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: I didn't look at it in depth because I don't really care. I averaged out 5 yrs and 125 mil. You ignored the incentives part of Dalton's contract too. At least I wouldn't have wasted a 1st or even a 7th on Manziel like some folks would have......so there's that.
I posted the links to the contracts. Are you really trying to pimp Andy because he may not have earned his incentives?
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....and Dalton's isn't? Plus, you have the option to part ways at any time without a cap hit. Carr has a cap hit until 2022, plus his deal goes back up after the 2020 season. Guess someone else shouldn't apply for GM, huh?
Dalton is under a team friendly contract for 2 more years. Derek is under one for 4 more years.
I get you spouted off a figure that has no place in reality, but at least save yourself some dignity.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I posted the links to the contracts. Are you really trying to pimp Andy because he may not have earned his incentives?
I didn't look at it intially when I posted that Carr costs more, hence 125 mil over 5 yrs + 25mil/yr.....shouldn't be that hard to keep up.
He didn't most likely earn incentives this year, because.....now try to follow along here.....he most likely didn't play 80% of the snaps, which is a qualifier. Hey, you're the one that posted the sporttrac links for me to look at.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - McC - 01-16-2019
I would think it is a virtual certainty that the next Bengal QB will be a brand new draftee who may or may not play his first year. It's hard to imagine that anybody but Dalton or a rookie would start for us.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: I didn't look at it intially when I posted that Carr costs more, hence 125 mil over 5 yrs + 25mil/yr.....shouldn't be that hard to keep up.But you made poor Fred buy it.
He didn't most likely earn incentives this year, because.....now try to follow along here.....he most likely didn't play 80% of the snaps, which is a qualifier. Hey, you're the one that posted the sporttrac links for me to look at.
Ah, so you're pimping Andy because he's coming off an injury.
Insert same gif.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Dalton is under a team friendly contract for 2 more years. Derek is under one for 4 more years.
I get you spouted off a figure that has no place in reality, but at least save yourself some dignity.
So how is it more friendly with a dead cap hit for FOUR years, and more expensive to boot, when Dalton's has ZERO cap hit? I thought we were all in agreement that we would be looking for a QB in the draft in the next year or so. You might want to rethink that last little bit.....or just ignore reality.
Carr is still making 20 mil in cash next season.....again, according to your source....while Dalton makes 16.2
I'll admit, your logic is damned hard to follow.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: So how is it more friendly with a dead cap hit for FOUR years, and more expensive to boot, when Dalton's has ZERO cap hit? I thought we were all in agreement that we would be looking for a QB in the draft in the next year or so. You might want to rethink that last little bit.....or just ignore reality.
Carr is still making 20 mil in cash next season.....again, according to your source....while Dalton makes 16.2
I'll admit, your logic is damned hard to follow.
I think everyone but Fred has followed. The money really is a wash as best. But enough about it.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:44 PM)McC Wrote: I would think it is a virtual certainty that the next Bengal QB will be a brand new draftee who may or may not play his first year. It's hard to imagine that anybody but Dalton or a rookie would start for us.
This. So why would you spend MORE money with a HUGE cap hit if you cut the guy, for a different version of the guy we have now...who is cheaper and has ZERO cap hit.....to be the bridge QB for a year or two?
(01-16-2019, 07:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But you made poor Fred buy it.
Ah, so you're pimping Andy because he's coming off an injury.
Insert same gif.
Who's pimping anyone? We're talking CASH FLOW. Please pay attention.
Derek Carr is Andy Dalton with more checkdown tendencies.....for more money, and a bigger cap hit. Not hard to see the lunacy in your thought process. We get it, you didn't like Palmer, you don't like Dalton. Is there a chance you're not a Bengals fan?
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think everyone but Fred has followed. The money really is a wash as best. But enough about it.
How is it a wash? There is a period of FOUR years you're committing to Carr for essentially another Andy Dalton who, indeed costs less, and you can shitcan at any given time with ZERO cap hit.
CARR: 86.25 against the cap until 2022
DALTON: 33.9 against the cap until 2020
Over the next two years, Carr is 44 mil against the cap, Dalton is 33.9 mil.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - fredtoast - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 07:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: it's telling that you bring up Dalton's best year that happened 4 years ago and hasn't come close to those numbers since; yet Carr just put up a career best season and posted a QB rating Andy have only beaten once in his live and that was about a 1/2 decade ago.
You don't get to use the old "Andy has had it rougher" and I damn sure don't expect you to admit that Carr has actually had it rougher. Dude put up a passer rating of over 93 while getting sacked 51 times. I've been told that's impossible.
The reasons are many: upside and age being among the tops and your "point that still stands" actually works against you as Carr is now on a team friendly contract when Andy will be hitting a contract year in 2 years.
Still not clear what makes you think Carr is a better QB than Dalton.
Career numbers? The passing numbers look about the same to me, but since Carr entered the league he has fumbled almost twice as much as Dalton (45 to 23) and Dalton has rushed for 11 tds to Carr's one.
Just his '18 numbers? Carr had a slightly higher passer rating (93.9 to 89.6) but only threw 19 tds in 16 games while Dalton had 21 in just 11 games. Also Dalton produced 4 game winning fourth quarter drives in just 10 games while Carr had only 3 in 16 games. And, finally Carr lead the league in fumbles with 12 while Dalton had only one.
So tell me again why you think Carr would be worth an extra $5 million over the next two seasons.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - bfine32 - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 08:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still not clear what makes you think Carr is a better QB than Dalton.
Career numbers? The passing numbers look about the same to me, but since Carr entered the league he has fumbled almost twice as much as Dalton (45 to 23) and Dalton has rushed for 11 tds to Carr's one.
Just his '18 numbers? Carr had a slightly higher passer rating (93.9 to 89.6) but only threw 19 tds in 16 games while Dalton had 21 in just 11 games. Also Dalton produced 4 game winning fourth quarter drives in just 10 games while Carr had only 3 in 16 games. And, finally Carr lead the league in fumbles with 12 while Dalton had only one.
So tell me again why you think Carr would be worth an extra $5 million over the next two seasons.
I already did. Go back and read the last sentence of the post you quoted.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 08:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I already did. Go back and read the last sentence of the post you quoted.
So you'd rather have Carr over a draft pick in a year or two?
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - fredtoast - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 08:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I already did. Go back and read the last sentence of the post you quoted.
So you would rather pay a QB who is not as good as Dalton $78.5 million over 4 years instead of paying Dalton $33.9 over two?
Sorry, but I can't see any logic in that argument at all.
RE: I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life - Wyche'sWarrior - 01-16-2019
(01-16-2019, 08:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you would rather pay a QB who is not as good as Dalton $78.5 million over 4 years instead of paying Dalton $33.9 over two?
Sorry, but I can't see any logic in that argument at all.
Me either.....unless you're not planning on drafting a QB over the next couple of seasons.