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Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Belsnickel - 05-22-2019 Has anyone else seen this situation? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crimes.html I have to say, this is concerning. Specifically, the situation with Gallagher. I get that the pardon power is truly without any real limits, but things like this send a clear, and disturbing message to the public, to our troops, and to other countries that we will tolerate this sort of behavior. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 Unfortunately I cannot read the list without subscribing, Is anyone on the list guilty of leaking government secrets? RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - GMDino - 05-22-2019 Quote:President Trump has indicated that he is considering pardons for several American military members accused or convicted of war crimes, including high-profile cases of murder, attempted murder and desecration of a corpse, according to two United States officials. It wouldn't surprise me. DJT probably thinks the military will applaud him if he does it. I mean he's smarter than the generals so he can decide what is "really" a war crime, right? He also probably doesn't think very hard on these kinds of things. Heck the guy might have written a nice letter about him! RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - BmorePat87 - 05-22-2019 Randomly walks up and stabs a prisoner to death as a medic is stabilizing them and poses with the body, bragging about the kill Fires indiscriminately into crowds of civilians on multiple occasions Shoots an old man going to get water and a young girl walking along a river with other girls threatened to kill any "traitor" that testified against him Sounds like a hero... RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Belsnickel - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 09:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Unfortunately I cannot read the list without subscribing, Is anyone on the list guilty of leaking government secrets? Ah, yes. Whattaboutism in the first response. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 As to Chief Gallagher the charges sound severe, but to my understanding he has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law. Seems that would be a requirement before a pardon is granted. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:05 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Ah, yes. Whattaboutism in the first response. As I said: I could not read the list. Dino was kind enough to share it. You wondered about the message such pardons would send to our troops and I provided you with one. They are generally not looked upon with favor. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Belsnickel - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:11 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Chief Gallagher the charges sound severe, but to my understanding he has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law. Seems that would be a requirement before a pardon is granted. He can be pardoned before the trial, which would end any criminal inquiry. (05-22-2019, 10:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said: I could not read the list. Dino was kind enough to share it. You wondered about the message such pardons would send to our troops and I provided you with one. They are generally not looked upon with favor. You provided one in this response, but not before. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your whataboutism. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: 1. He can be pardoned before the trial, which would end any criminal inquiry. 1. That sounds shady 2. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself while criticizing fellow board members. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Dill - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: He can be pardoned before the trial, which would end any criminal inquiry. Even if he doesn't, the Commander-in-Chief publicly talking about a case, suggesting an outcome he'd like to see ahead of time, is "undue command influence" on the trial. https://www.court-martial.com/unlawful-command-influence-uci.html Outside of Trumpworld, the implications of such pardons are deeply disturbing. Senior military officers rebel against Trump plan to pardon troops accused of war crimes https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-pentagon-oppose-trump-pardon-murder-warcrimes-20190522-story.html “Absent evidence of innocence or injustice, the wholesale pardon of U.S. service members accused of war crimes signals our troops and allies that we don’t take the law of armed conflict seriously,” retired Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a tweet Tuesday. He added: “Bad message. Bad precedent. Abdication of moral responsibility. Risk to us.” RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:30 AM)Dill Wrote: Even if he doesn't, the Commander-in-Chief publicly talking about a case, suggesting an outcome he'd like to see ahead of time, is "undue command influence" on the trial. https://www.court-martial.com/unlawful-command-influence-uci.html I agree, but it's been done before in a much more high profile case..(is that whataboutisim). I didn't like it before and I don't like it now. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-22-2019 Gallagher sounds like a case in which a pardon would not be warranted, at all. As for the marines who urinated on a corpse, it annoyed me that they were ever charged in the first place. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Dill - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 09:02 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to say, this is concerning. Specifically, the situation with Gallagher. I get that the pardon power is truly without any real limits, but things like this send a clear, and disturbing message to the public, to our troops, and to other countries that we will tolerate this sort of behavior. "Concerning" is rather an understatement. The genesis of the pardon is also a problem. Instead of cases vetted by the DOJ which rise to the president's attention due to legal anomalies and apparent injustice, this one originates in Fox and Friends. "Fox & Friends" co-host Pete Hegseth lobbied Trump to pardon soldiers accused of war crimes https://www.salon.com/2019/05/21/fox-friends-co-host-pete-hegseth-lobbied-trump-to-pardon-soldiers-accused-of-war-crimes/ “God bless our Commander-in-Chief,” Hegseth gushed. “A true warfighter’s President. This would be amazing.” Hegseth did not mention in his post, nor to his television audience, that he had repeatedly personally lobbied Trump for the pardons since as early as January, The Daily Beast reported. Hegseth, who was previously considered a candidate to head the Department of Veterans Affairs, repeatedly had private discussions with Trump about pardoning Gallagher and others. Hegseth told the president that the process had been “very unfair” to Gallagher, according to the report, and since at least March urged Trump to pardon others as well. Hegseth has repeatedly discussed the cases on the show and has interviewed Golsteyn and Gallagher’s brother. “These guys make tough calls in moments most people have never been a part of in their life,” Hegseth told Gallagher’s brother Sean in February, “and then folks in suits in Washington, D.C., they throw paper at them and accuse them of things.” "WARRIORS," not war criminals, says Hegseth. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Dill - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:35 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree, but it's been done before in a much more high profile case..(is that whataboutisim). I didn't like it before and I don't like it now. Legal precedents are not "whatabouts." Er, wait. Did your precedent involve Hillary? RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Belsnickel - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Gallagher sounds like a case in which a pardon would not be warranted, at all. As for the marines who urinated on a corpse, it annoyed me that they were ever charged in the first place. I think they should have been disciplined, but because of the media attention the incident received there was an effort to make an example of them. I feel like they should have been given an Article 15 at least, but they didn't deserve the treatment they got from higher ups. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 03:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think they should have been disciplined, but because of the media attention the incident received there was an effort to make an example of them. I feel like they should have been given an Article 15 at least, but they didn't deserve the treatment they got from higher ups. I agree, but it's also the incongruity of the whole thing that bothers me. It's like Colonel Kurtz stated in Apocalypse Now, "We train young men to drop fire on people, but we won't let them write F#*k on their airplanes, because it's obscene." Yes I know Kurtz was insane but he made a solid as hell point there. Riddle a guy with bullets, ok! Urinate on his corpse, prison time! For the record I understand why that kind of conduct is not allowed, but, again, the incongruity of the whole thing really bothers me. RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:58 AM)Dill Wrote: Legal precedents are not "whatabouts." Nah, RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:25 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. That sounds shady I believe it was you who wrote, "When you try too hard, you usually wind up looking petty and foolish." RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - Benton - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nah, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/us/bergdahl-called-dirty-rotten-traitor-by-trump-seeks-end-to-charges.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-abc-region®ion=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region&_r=0 I don't recall Obama saying courts should do one thing or the other on Bergdahl . RE: Potential Memorial Day Pardons - bfine32 - 05-22-2019 (05-22-2019, 10:30 AM)Dill Wrote: Even if he doesn't, the Commander-in-Chief publicly talking about a case, suggesting an outcome he'd like to see ahead of time, is "undue command influence" on the trial. https://www.court-martial.com/unlawful-command-influence-uci.html (05-22-2019, 09:59 PM)Benton Wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/us/bergdahl-called-dirty-rotten-traitor-by-trump-seeks-end-to-charges.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-abc-region®ion=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region&_r=0 Pretty sure the point of the post I was replying to was about "undue command influence". You didn't see Obama's action as influence or were you just saying? |