(05-20-2020, 09:06 PM)Benton Wrote: The danger is in the previous posts. Shortages for those who need it, potential spread, etc. Do you even read the posts or is deflection that big of a kneejerk?

(05-20-2020, 06:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Did he say taking it keeps us safe"? 

Of course there are 0 doctors or medical experts saying the potential rewards could outweigh the risks. 

With every post you guys are proving more amd more the reason for the outrage. 

(05-20-2020, 10:27 PM)hollodero Wrote: I bet you 10 zillion hypothetical dollars that if president Hillary had repeatedly recommended taking an unproven drug to fight corona, and doubled down by claiming she takes said unproven, unrecommended drug herself, you'd be calling her all kinds of unflattering things over that, and you would call everyone all kinds of unflattering things who was not equally appalled.

By no means would you step in and defend Hillary against the conservative posters who'd have a field day with that.

Same, of course, is true with 10.000 even more glaring examples. But yeah, "we guys".

(05-20-2020, 06:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's amazing how you've got it all figured out. 

Quote:We currently have an ethical responsibility as leaders in our field to be prominent, speak out against misinformation, and deliver the facts.

(05-20-2020, 11:55 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Here is something of interest released today pointing to what I was trying to say. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/chinas-new-outbreak-shows-signs-the-virus-could-be-changing/ar-BB14leel?li=BBnb7Kz

Quote: “In theory, some changes in the genetic structure can lead to changes in the virus structure or how the virus behaves,” said Keiji Fukuda, director and clinical professor at the University of Hong Kong’s School of Public Health. “However, many mutations lead to no discernible changes at all.”

It’s likely that the observations in China don’t have a simple correlation with a mutation and “very clear evidence” is needed before concluding that the virus is mutating, he said.

(05-21-2020, 12:58 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It’s amazing how quickly you have abandoned your do no harm argument.

Professional medical organizations which monitor research and make recommendations for best practices certainly help. The American Medical Association, American Pharmacists Association, American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, Food and Drug Administration, Infectious Disease Society of America, American Academy of Pediatrics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and National Institute of Health, among others all recommend against the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid-19 except in an inpatient setting and as part of a clinical trial.

That does not include as an outpatient prophylaxis and doing so flies in the face of the “standard of care” and best practices. To put that in Army vernacular, Trump’s doctor is out their flappin’.

Let’s just ignore who is promoting this and what he is promoting. When a patient requests a medication with no proven benefit for a particular problem with real adverse effects that could result in death the provider needs to tell that patient “no” for their own benefit.

This is what the Society of Critical Care Medicine has to say . . .


https://journals.lww.com/ccejournal/Fulltext/2020/04000/Fact_Versus_Science_Fiction__Fighting_Coronavirus.15.aspx

Quote:Researchers at NYU's Grossman School of Medicine found patients given the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine along with zinc sulphate and the antibiotic azithromycin were 44 percent less likely to die from the coronavirus.


"Certainly we have very limited options as far as what we have seen work for this infection so anything that may work is very exciting," said Dr. Joseph Rahimian, Infectious Disease Specialist at NYU Langone Health.

(05-21-2020, 11:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: They really should require a prescription for this drug. Instead of just letting the president say "take it" and killing everyone.

I've heard there are ongoing clinical trials to determine if hqc is effective in combating COVID and has been prescribed to some that are hospitalized with the illness. Hell, I've heard some hospitals are having doctors prescribe it instead of POTUS.

There's also this:
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/05/12/nyu-study-looks-at-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-azithromycin-combo-on-decreasing-covid-19-deaths
 
You may have written it off, put apparently some "stupid" healthcare professionals continue to study it.

BLUF: Many are blowing this out of proportion for one reason only. We can argue back and forth for pages or we can accept that simple fact. 

(05-20-2020, 08:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: FTR Trump says whatever comes to his small mind whenever it comes to his small mind.  The reason he "just asked" of we could inject disinfectants into the lungs is because he heard for the first time, right then, that disinfectants work on the virus.  Never mind that they were talking about on surfaces.  He heard it and decided to "spitball" as if he was in a boardroom "just asking" if steak with his name on it would sell.

And when he does the people with the heads right deep up inside of there will be listening for what he "meant" and "explaining" how everyone ELSE is wrong about it.

(05-21-2020, 11:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: They really should require a prescription for this drug. Instead of just letting the president say "take it" and killing everyone.

Quote:I've heard there are ongoing clinical trials to determine if hqc is effective in combating COVID and has been prescribed to some that are hospitalized with the illness. Hell, I've heard some hospitals are having doctors prescribe it instead of POTUS.

Quote:There's also this:
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/05/12/nyu-study-looks-at-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-azithromycin-combo-on-decreasing-covid-19-deaths

Quote:You may have written it off, put apparently some "stupid" healthcare professionals continue to study it.

Quote:BLUF: Many are blowing this out of proportion for one reason only. We can argue back and forth for pages or we can accept that simple fact. 

Quote:Coronavirus testing in the United States is disorganized and needs coordination at the national level, infectious disease experts said in a new report released Wednesday.

Right now, testing is not accurate enough to use alone to make most decisions, including who should go back to work or to school, the team at the University of Minnesota said.


"It's a mess out there," Mike Osterholm, head of the university's Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP), which issued the report, told CNN.

"Testing is very, very important, but we're not doing the right testing."

The number of tests that have been completed -- numbers widely reported by states and by the White House -- show only part of the picture, the report reads.

"The data is really kind of screwed up," Osterholm said. "It's because the public health system is overwhelmed."

The report has some specific recommendations for diagnostic tests that check to see if someone is currently infected with coronavirus.

Testing is most useful for clinical care of patients, for disease surveillance and contact tracing and for monitoring frontline workers such as emergency responders, doctors and nurses who may have been exposed, the report recommends. People with symptoms should also be tested, it says.

But coronavirus testing is not accurate enough yet to use in many other ways, the CIDRAP team said.

It recommends against:
• Universal testing in hospital settings
• Testing in schools or other low-risk settings
• Widespread community-based testing
• Antibody tests to decide who goes back to work
• Immunity passports

It might be useful to test asymptomatic people in long-term care facilities in some cases because they are likely to have many cases, the report said. "Asymptomatic shedding of the virus may be detected with a molecular test (which looks for the virus itself) or an antigen test (which looks for important pieces of the virus). It is not yet clear where, when and how asymptomatic individuals should be tested."


The report also says that antibody tests should be used only with caution. These tests check the blood for evidence of an immune response to the virus, and indicate that someone has been infected for some days or has even cleared an infection. They are most useful for identifying donors of plasma used to treat patients or for deciding on how to manage patients when standard diagnostic tests are negative, the report says.

It's not clear if antibody tests are useful for testing of health care workers to determine immune status, according to the report.

"We believe that greatly expanding SARSCoV-2 testing is a critical element in our response to COVID-19," the report reads. "For testing to be maximally effective, coordination across the system and across jurisdictions is necessary. Ideally, this requires federal guidance, leadership and support, with strong jurisdictional buy-in at the state and local levels."

The report calls on the US Department of Health and Human Services to appoint a panel to oversee and organize testing. "The panel should include representatives from public health, clinical laboratory, and medicine; the laboratory testing research and development, marketing, and product support industries; ethicists; legal scholars; and elected officials," it says.

Osterholm noted that some states are combining data from diagnostic tests and antibody tests to make estimates about how many people have been infected. The Food and Drug Administration advises against using tests in this way and so does Osterholm. "You need to do the right test at the right time to get the right result," he said. "Nobody is thinking through that."

Plus, there's not enough coordination to ensure that states have the testing supplies they need. This is a system and if a system breaks down anywhere, it breaks down everywhere," Osterholm said.

"What good are the test results if you can't trust them?"

(05-21-2020, 03:06 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So people are prescribed hydroxychloroquine IAW with the recommendations like Trump's doctor?  Oh, wait.  Trump's doctor didn't follow the recommendations. Or he lied about not following the recommendations.

So just go to your doctor and demand a prescription against recommendations just like Trump did.


I know you're aware of the prescribing recommendations because I just gave them to you last night.  I also know you're aware providers shouldn't write prescriptions for medications when the known risks outweigh any unproven benefit because I told you that last night, also.  And I also know you know the difference between treatment and prophylaxis because I educated you on that last night, also.  So stop pretending like you haven't been educated.


1) From your source, "Meanwhile, a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association on Monday found that treating patients only with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, or both did not reduce hospital deaths."

So at best the studies are conflicting which means the treatment isn't proven to help.  

2) That is an observation study which means, "And he cautioned that more research is needed - in particular a randomized controlled trial - to prove how and how well the drug combination works."

Trump started touting hydroxychloroquine based upon a French study with 26 test subjects in which every patient that got worse or died was excluded from the results.  If you exclude everyone who didn't improve, gets what the results show? It works.  So that's a shitty study that people are using to claim the test results are inconclusive so maybe Trump will get a placebo effect.
 

Wow, you're so desperate to defend Trump you're willing to totally misrepresent what I wrote.

1) It's stupid to write a prescription for a medication with potentially fatal side effects when it isn't proven to have a benefit for a specific condition.  Especially in light of the numerous recommendations of medical professional organizations and government health organizations that specifically deal with the safe prescribing of medications.

2) I never wrote it is stupid to study hydroxychloroquine's effectiveness.  But, we need to do so responsibly due to the risks associated with that medication.  That's why numerous organizations have made the recommendations that currently guide its use.

3) I haven't written it off.  My mind is open to its use.  What will change my mind relative to what I currently know, the available evidence from various studies, and the recommendations of numerous professional and government health agencies is . . . EVIDENCE.

Evidence will change my mind.


I've already conceded this is because of Trump.  We haven't had a president this dishonest and/or stupid to continually push a drug's use to the public against medical advice.  He's a snake oil salesman pushing a snake oil.  I'd expect nothing less from the founder of Trump University.

On the flip side, you're defending Trump for the same reason you claim is the source of the outrage; Trump.

(05-21-2020, 06:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: In here Not blaming Trump for everything=Defending Trump. It's been that way for about the last 5 years.

Sunset asked why the uproar over HQC and I said it's because Trump is the one advocating it. From your above responses it appears you do not have a lot of faith in your fellow Healthcare providers. Any healthcare provider who writes a prescription for a patient he/she doesn't need or worse yet could cause them harm is to blame not POTUS.

I've clearly said his touting of household cleaners was some dangerous shit, but this HCQ pimping really is not. There are folks out there that are sick and dying, with no remedy. Why are we mad if POTUS tells them there might be hope?

Trump told reporters he wore a mask in the "back area" of the Ford plant. Here's a photo of him in the back area of the Ford plant without a mask. pic.twitter.com/aAR6Sxljgz

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) May 21, 2020

(05-21-2020, 06:51 PM)GMDino Wrote: "we" are not.

We are not "mad".

We also don't but snakeoil.

To use you first example it would be no different if the POTUS told people he ODs on Vitamin D every day as a "precaution" to prevent him from getting the virus.  That's dangerous and there is no scientific basis for it.

So keep "not defending" him I guess.

(05-21-2020, 06:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: In here Not blaming Trump for everything=Defending Trump. It's been that way for about the last 5 years.

Quote:Sunset asked why the uproar over HQC and I said it's because Trump is the one advocating it. From your above responses it appears you do not have a lot of faith in your fellow Healthcare providers. Any healthcare provider who writes a prescription for a patient he/she doesn't need or worse yet could cause them harm is to blame not POTUS.

Quote:CDC experts found that healthy adults with acute bronchitis only received the right treatment—meaning they did not get an antibiotic—just over 20 percent of the time. This shows that nearly 80 percent of the time, patients were getting an antibiotic unnecessarily.

Quote:I've clearly said his touting of household cleaners was some dangerous shit, but this HCQ pimping really is not. There are folks out there that are sick and dying, with no remedy. Why are we mad if POTUS tells them there might be hope?