(12-24-2015, 08:21 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: No, they're not just speaking of our depth. This team will continue to win with AJ, Dalton or just about any NFL QB, we're just that loaded.

(12-24-2015, 05:20 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: No disrespect to Andy, but have you completely lost your mind?? 
You allow QB stats to influence you tremendously, I get that. But everyone by now should realize Cam's a BEAST! The man is doing things that have NEVER been done before. He's a trailblazer for eyes only! This Sunday, put down the stats and turn on the TV. Stats, especially QB stats, DO NOT REVEAL ALL!

Not to say Andy's not having good year, we may yet win with him in the post season. But let's be honest, Cam 
makes players around him better, Andy requires better players to make himself better. That explains why Andy is only good when nearly everyone around him is much better than he is. Unfortunately, you won't learn this from reading stats alone.
Lastly, coaches coach and players play.

(12-24-2015, 08:21 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: No, they're not just speaking of our depth. This team will continue to win with AJ, Dalton or just about any NFL QB, we're just that loaded.

(12-24-2015, 08:21 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: No, they're not just speaking of our depth. This team will continue to win with AJ, Dalton or just about any NFL QB, we're just that loaded.

(12-25-2015, 09:47 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: I didn't say the Bengals didn't have talent. I said Bengals fans overvalue that talent with the exception of Andy Dalton. I'm sorry, there's just no argument that can be made for all of the offensive players being better than Dalton. There's just not. After AJ Green, Andy Dalton is the best offensive weapon this team has and it's not even close.

(12-25-2015, 02:53 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I am going to have to disagree with you on a couple points.. First Newton is having a MVP year.. Andy is having a great year... but to act like Cam has been so superior since they came in the league together is just not factually true.  I have witnessed great games and terrible games by both players , I have seen Cam make terrible throws and terrible decisions just has I have seen Andy do the same.. I have seen Cam lead his team to late victories with some great plays and I have seen the same from Andy.  You give to much credit to Cam for his abilities for a team success but too little credit to Andy for his abilities for a team success.

Finally one area that Cam has gotten a free pass on is playoff performance.. If he is so superior especially on the big stage why is he 1-2 in the playoffs ???  

(12-25-2015, 02:57 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Put Andy  on Carolina, take Newton  away and Carolina would continue to win in the NFL

(12-25-2015, 09:47 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: I didn't say the Bengals didn't have talent. I said Bengals fans overvalue that talent with the exception of Andy Dalton. I'm sorry, there's just no argument that can be made for all of the offensive players being better than Dalton. There's just not. After AJ Green, Andy Dalton is the best offensive weapon this team has and it's not even close.

(12-25-2015, 02:57 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Put Andy  on Carolina, take Newton  away and Carolina would continue to win in the NFL

(12-25-2015, 05:39 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I don't think the Panthers would welcome that idea. Look, here's what's important, Andy is in situation where a pocket passer can flourish and he's taken full advantage of it. As a fan I'm thankful our team drafted the necessary talent to accomplish such an ideal situation. But to put Andy behind the Carolina OL, two things would happen almost immediately.
1. Their running attack would shrivel up. 2. Consequently, their passing attack would fall off. Remember, when Carolina WRs drop pass after pass, as they often do, Cam put's the team on his shoulders and keeps the chains moving. That's where Andy would fall short.  

(12-25-2015, 05:53 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree,, Carolina has a good running game,, Andy would not hurt it with his quick passing would help it.. As for drops.. overall in their career Andy has a better release and more accurate with throws... Carolina would continue to be a competitive team.. by the way last year they were like 500 with Cam... 

Bottom line Andy Dalton and his skill set will make a decent NFL a good NFL team... Cam has moved ahead of Dalton this year.. but Dalton has also raised the bar and would be highly sought after

(12-25-2015, 10:12 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote:

(12-25-2015, 10:12 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So you are saying that going into this year, Cam Newton had totally outplayed Dalton ???  Saying that is comical, you do know coming into this year, Cam had a career record of 30-31-1  with one of the best Defenses in the league during his tenure compared to Daltons 41-23-1 record.  Both came into the league with teams had already were bad teams, neither had any team advantage.   Just this past  summer there were those saying this was a make or break year for Cam just as they were saying that about Dalton. 

Besides have a top Defense with probably the best LB in the NFL during his tenure Carolina they also have  had  Williams and /or Stewart in the backfield since Cam was a starter..  You do understand that he had Steve Smith a Hall of Fame WR his first three years, have had Olsen a top 5 TE since the beginning of his tenure  and the breakout sensation in Benjamin last year.  The shelves of talent have  not been empty for Cam.

Actually the more I look at Carolina and Cincinnati since Newton and Dalton came into the league there is not a great amount of difference between the talent of the teams.  There defense has been better than ours and their running backs and TE over the 5 years also.  I give us an edge at WR and offensive line.

This year though Cam has really put it all together.. he has always had the physical skills but accuracy and decision making has held him back from being the premier player that he is right now.  We can also say Andy has done the same just on a step below Cam this year but to think Cam had towered over Andy in overall QB performance coming into their 5th year well would be factually wrong.

No, I'm not saying coming into this year Cam totally out played Andy. But he's better than Andy. I'll admit I'm impressed with Andy, I never thought the kid could play at his current level. 
[b]But you may be placing too much on QB stats and not enough of watching them actually play.
I'm not going to debate anyone on "who has the better offensive weapons between the two QBs?" It's plain to see. 
Fortuantly for Cam, he's proven he can rush for over a 100 yds and pass for over 300 without Stewart in at RB. 
Whats most important to me is "when in the game did QB perform brilliantly and when did he perform subpar?"
 The key words being "when"!
I'm saying in football, to know is to see, not to read!

(12-26-2015, 05:08 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well I know what I can see also and what I saw over the first 4 years was the FIRST PICK OF THE DRAFT of a QB not living up to his advertisement.. losing record and 2 out of 4 times missing the playoffs.. that is not only what I saw and what other people saw too that were questioning the huge investment.. it was not till this year that Cam has finally played up to his billing and ability. Now what is interesting is could Cam fall into the Andy boat if he goes one and done in playoffs which would make him 1-3 in playoffs.. We shall SEE    WHO DEY

(12-25-2015, 11:40 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....and you neglected to address the rest of my post.  The talent is also wide spread....that's why they say "top to bottom".
Andy is part of said talent. There are several QBs in this league who would not do as well as he does because they don't have the cerebral part of Andy's game , or scrambling ability....and no one besides Brady gets the ball out as quickly.  

(12-26-2015, 05:27 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Lol....After Can's first NFL season, "none haters, in the know" have not questioned Cam. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about Andy. There are still those among us that question his mental toughness .we won't to see him do more.

(12-26-2015, 06:06 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well here are a few  articles over the summer that again affirms what I have been saying with you.. As the 1st QB in the draft, Cam Newton to some has not performed up to expectations especially the losing record coming into this year at the helm of the Panthers... My argument with you has been nothing to do with this season but the past 4 years.  Obviously your strong bias towards Cam that is it hard to get you even come close to my opinion so i figured i would at least end this back and forth with what others that seem to have been saying the same thing as I have been coming into this season.  I will end with I believe that both Cam and Andy have proved their detractors  ( me being one of Cams) wrong with how they played this season .

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2513021-is-2015-a-make-or-break-year-for-cam-newton  

Here is another from last summer where he is ranked just ahead of Stafford (middle of pack) of 1st pick of draft QBs...

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000501596

Here is a third article from past summer

http://nflspinzone.com/2015/04/17/carolina-panthers-cam-newton-worthy-first-overall-pick/ 

(12-26-2015, 06:27 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Sports writer Jim Reineking is your source of proof of a "none-hater in the know"? Jim knows nothing about evaluating QBs, his job is to attract the attention of those seeking popular- like- minded opinions. The mans a rebel rouser. He's probably writing a script right now about how great Cam is.

(12-26-2015, 09:53 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: but you are an expert ?? who by chance do you write for ??  and the other articles, are you going to hammer them as non-writers.. when are you ever going to take off your blinders ??  Since i have continued to shine light on this topic and you keep your blinders on im just going to say adios and on to the next topic.

(12-27-2015, 01:30 AM)TexasorBusted Wrote: The major question is, "Are both Cam Newton and Andy Dalton franchise quarterbacks?" I think both have proven to be franchise QBs. Cam Newton was the #1 pick while Andy Dalton was an early second round pick (With the #4 pick in AJ Green) in 2011. Cam should be a franchise QB and the best of the 2011 class. Dalton was the fifth QB taken in the 2011 draft after Cam, Locker, Gabbert and Ponder. The fact that Dalton was a hit when it comes to being a franchise QB is awesome for the Bengals. If you measure by who had the better draft, it was the Bengals clearly with the Green/Dalton combo.

I think the debate between Cam vs Dalton is sort of pointless. Both are franchise QBs. Both are winners. Both make their teams better.

I think maybe Cam has the higher ceiling, but that's not a surprise. Cam has lots of skill. But Dalton has skill too. Both are having breakout years. I think that some years Cam will be better and others Dalton will be better. But both will still be playing at a franchise QB level, and that's what really matters. This helps greatly with future drafts. You don't have to keep adding names to that Brown's jersey.