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+--- Thread: 2020 Election (/Thread-2020-Election)
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RE: 2020 Election - bfine32 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:42 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yes...because they all got one vote. Why should that guy in the field have any more say than his one vote? Why do we need to artificially prop up his values because of where he lives through the weighting of his vote?
It's not where he lives; it what he does. You cannot have crowded farms.
I get the over-simplification of one person, one vote, but, it seems the framers may have not been so simple.
RE: 2020 Election - GMDino - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Land. Doesn't. Work. Itself.
But I'll take that as you saying that folks living in a high rise in NYC are 27,000 times more important than the folks that feed America.
This is intentionally wrong.
It has to be. No one could make that argument without doing it intentionally.
One can argue the merits of the EC without being deliberately misleading like that.
RE: 2020 Election - michaelsean - 11-06-2020
Did moose hunting season just open in Alaska or something? They aren't going to count the rest until next week.
RE: 2020 Election - bfine32 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 10:41 AM)GMDino Wrote: Ah! But I've been told on here those THOSE people are "idiots" who were just smart enough to move because they didn't like certain policies but just dumb enough to vote IN FAVOR of those same policies in their new home state! So can we really trust their votes?
This is the exact type of post that should be unilaterally rebuked in this forum. it's only intent is to incite and a clear violation.
RE: 2020 Election - Au165 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It's not where he lives; it what he does. You cannot have crowded farms.
So he gets disproportionately higher voting power because of his job? Seems kind of elitist.
Quote:I get the over-simplification of one person, one vote, but, it seems the framers may have not been so simple.
The framers were struggling to navigate slavery as a young country. Madison in 1823 knew the electoral college was broke and wanted at the least to ban winner take all, but would have pushed for one person one vote if he thought viable. They knew it wasn't viable at the framing because they'd never get the south to go along with it.
RE: 2020 Election - Nately120 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Land. Doesn't. Work. Itself.
But I'll take that as you saying that folks living in a high rise in NYC are 27,000 times more important than the folks that feed America.
Hey, those landworking rural folks are ready to mutiny for the sake of one of those people who is from a NYC high rise.
RE: 2020 Election - Belsnickel - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I thought about this while out riding in the country today. I saw miles of fields getting harvested and thought; that field doesn't get a vote, while the man that works it to put food on my table only gets one, but by the same token 27,000 people live in one square mile in NYC.
Is that "fair"?
Yes. To think otherwise is undemocratic and un-American. Even when there were rules about land ownership for voting, it didn't matter how much land you owned, you got one vote.
(11-06-2020, 11:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: Exactly.
Also the guy working that field probably doesn't even own the land. He might not live on the land. He might be an illegal alien!
So here is an interesting bit of governmental philosophy. Land is owned by the collective citizenry, managed by the governments, and leased to us (even if we "buy it"). Property taxes are essentially what we pay to the government for our lease. This is based on the concept of zoning as government takings, because they exercise their control over land even considered to be "private."
Anyway, just an interesting little bit of food for thought. Not necessarily something I agree with, but an argument I have heard.
RE: 2020 Election - bfine32 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:51 AM)Au165 Wrote: So he gets disproportionately higher voting power because of his job? Seems kind of elitist.
The framers were struggling to navigate slavery as a young country. Madison in 1823 knew the electoral college was broke and wanted at the least to ban winner take all, but would have pushed for one person one vote if he thought viable. They knew it wasn't viable at the framing because they'd never get the south to go along with it.
Doesn't seem elitist at all to me. What do you tell the farmer? Hey we need you to work all this land, but see those 20 people living in that apartment, they have 20 times the voting power as you.
RE: 2020 Election - Dill - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 10:29 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Because we live in a federal republic where every state has a voice, and that voice is based off of the population. So bigger states and cities can't just control the small ones by always controlling the executive branch. What's good for the city isnt always good for the country and vice versa.
Well I am a Dem who grew up in a small state, which very much shaped my view on how important states are as states.
Even though I have been "burned" by the electoral college in national elections, I still favor keeping the electoral college, in part because I want to keep the US a FEDERAL system in which states are actually states and can check on federal power.
States and state power/rights are increasingly invisible as as states as the population becomes more mobile.
RE: 2020 Election - Big Boss - 11-06-2020
Trump Campaign is now crying about networks prematurely calling Biden because the four key states have not finalized counting yet.
So I guess they want to count votes now. Gosh I can hardly keep up.
RE: 2020 Election - Nately120 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:54 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Doesn't seem elitist at all to me. What do you tell the farmer? Hey we need you to work all this land, but see those 20 people living in that apartment, they have 20 times the voting power as you.
Pretty much. What's next? We let people murder 19 citifolk before we call the cops but as soon as they murder one farmer we call foul?
RE: 2020 Election - bfine32 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes. To think otherwise is undemocratic and un-American. Even when there were rules about land ownership for voting, it didn't matter how much land you owned, you got one vote.
So here is an interesting bit of governmental philosophy. Land is owned by the collective citizenry, managed by the governments, and leased to us (even if we "buy it"). Property taxes are essentially what we pay to the government for our lease. This is based on the concept of zoning as government takings, because they exercise their control over land even considered to be "private."
Anyway, just an interesting little bit of food for thought. Not necessarily something I agree with, but an argument I have heard.
I get the liberal way of thinking is to make it about elitist, but there's a very good chance that the person that owns the land lives in a city. I'm talking about the rural folks that take on the task of feeding America.
RE: 2020 Election - Au165 - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:54 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Doesn't seem elitist at all to me. What do you tell the farmer? Hey we need you to work all this land, but see those 20 people living in that apartment, they have 20 times the voting power as you.
No, they have the exact same voting power as you..1 vote for 1 person. If those 20 people agree on the same thing, their collective power has more say...because that is how voting works.
RE: 2020 Election - Nately120 - 11-06-2020
All I'll say is in 2016 I lived in an apartment when I voted...in 2020 I own land with trees and a stream and everything. I am now more important. You're welcome everyone.
RE: 2020 Election - fredtoast - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:24 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: What you said makes no sense. A small state that's mostly city vs a big state that's mostly country doesn't make my argument any less.
Then I don't understand your argument.
I thought you were saying smaller population states represent rural voters while larger population state represent big cities. Since this is not true your argument that small population states need equal representation because "What is good for the CITIES is not always good for the country".
Why do you support giving urban/big city states like Delaware and Rhode Island extra power if you are concerned about rural areas being underrepresented?
RE: 2020 Election - Dill - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So here is an interesting bit of governmental philosophy. Land is owned by the collective citizenry, managed by the governments, and leased to us (even if we "buy it"). Property taxes are essentially what we pay to the government for our lease. This is based on the concept of zoning as government takings, because they exercise their control over land even considered to be "private."
Outrageous! How could such a system ever work?
You would have to fool millions into believing that leased land was REALLY their own, based on "natural rights" preceding government.
How plausible is that?
RE: 2020 Election - michaelsean - 11-06-2020
I go back and forth in my mind on popular vote, but the one thing to remember is each state is sovereign, and it doesn't matter if they have 100,000 people or 10 million people. They don't want to be ruled by a few other states. So if not the EC, then at least there is the senate to represent the state, but now we have people starting to complain about that. Keep going this way and we are going to have two coasts deciding everything for everyone in between.
RE: 2020 Election - Dill - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: No, they have the exact same voting power as you..1 vote for 1 person. If those 20 people agree on the same thing, their collective power has more say...because that is how voting works.
That's how liberal democracy works.
RE: 2020 Election - Brownshoe - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:54 AM)Dill Wrote: Well I am a Dem who grew up in a small state, which very much shaped my view on how important states are as states.
Even though I have been "burned" by the electoral college in national elections, I still favor keeping the electoral college, in part because I want to keep the US a FEDERAL system in which states are actually states and can check on federal power.
States and state power/rights are increasingly invisible as as states as the population becomes more mobile.
Even if the EC favored democrats I would be in support of it. One vote is one vote for every state, and the majority of the state gets to choose who they're voting for. Since it is a federal system California votes don't bleed into other states like Utah. A mostly country state is going to have different views and problems than a mostly urban state. If someone wants to get rid of the federal system then that's an argument, but I wouldn't support that either.
RE: 2020 Election - fredtoast - 11-06-2020
(11-06-2020, 11:56 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm talking about the rural folks that take on the task of feeding America.
Large corporations run the farms that feed America.
And what about the people who work in factories that provide the equipment farmers need to feed America?
What about doctors, police, and firemen that save American lives? Should their votes count more?