Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media (/Thread-Israel-strike-in-Gaza-destroys-building-with-AP-other-media) |
Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Belsnickel - 05-15-2021 https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-gaza-middle-east-israel-palestinian-conflict-7974cc0c03897b8b21e5fc2f8c7d8a79 This is a bad look, for sure. Quote:GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — An Israeli airstrike destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets on Saturday, the latest step by the military to silence reporting from the territory amid its battle with the militant group Hamas. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Au165 - 05-15-2021 America’s support for Israel should be questioned after such actions. Bombing the press is a war crime, and not something we should be aligned with. That is setting aside the apartheid we have essentially allowed to exist for so long without any repercussions. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-15-2021 Generally not a fan of Israel's foreign policies, but it's hard to automatically condemn them for something like this given Hamas and Hezbollah's deliberate tactics of setting up their military equipment in buildings containing civilians. As pointed out civilian casualties are a "bad look" and those terrorist organizations are more than happy to get some children killed to make Israel look bad. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Belsnickel - 05-15-2021 (05-15-2021, 01:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Generally not a fan of Israel's foreign policies, but it's hard to automatically condemn them for something like this given Hamas and Hezbollah's deliberate tactics of setting up their military equipment in buildings containing civilians. As pointed out civilian casualties are a "bad look" and those terrorist organizations are more than happy to get some children killed to make Israel look bad. But bombing the press? That's highly problematic. Also, I get that terrorists tend to intermingle with the civilian population making it difficult to sort them out, but air raids on refugee camps are a bit hard to swallow. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Dill - 05-15-2021 (05-15-2021, 11:37 AM)Au165 Wrote: America’s support for Israel should be questioned after such actions. Bombing the press is a war crime, and not something we should be aligned with. That is setting aside the apartheid we have essentially allowed to exist for so long without any repercussions. Agreed. Just to add . . . Apartheid, while not a "war crime," is a crime against humanity and prosecutable under international law, according to the Rome Statues of the ICC. https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-library/documents/rs-eng.pdf (Article 2. 2. f.) And yes one could plausibly argue the U.S. is the number one reason prosecution does not go forward in this case. But the more U.S. citizens see the effects of Apartheid and the more they learn of the history of the conflict over Palestine, the less likely they'll be to blame Palestinians for their own self-defense. Still the problem of Evangelicals, though. They aren't much interested in international law based on universal human rights. God gave that land to the Jews and they need it back for the Endtime. The occupation of the West Bank looks illegal only to people outside that Biblical frame of reference. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-15-2021 (05-15-2021, 04:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But bombing the press? That's highly problematic. Also, I get that terrorists tend to intermingle with the civilian population making it difficult to sort them out, but air raids on refugee camps are a bit hard to swallow. I don't disagree with any of this, but based on what I said previously I'm going to err on the side of waiting for more information before I condemn Israel. If Hamas is firing rockets from a refugee camp then the refugee camp getting hit is on them, not Israel. While it's possible, I doubt Israel targeted the press deliberately or the building itself for no reason. And again, I'm not a huge Israel backer. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - treee - 05-15-2021 I can agree with the simple premise that Israel has the right to defend themselves with the caveat that what they are doing to Palestinians is a lot more than defend themselves. Palestinians are not an existential threat to state of Israel but they pretend that they are so that they can wave away their severely poor treatment of innocent bystanders. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-15-2021 (05-15-2021, 05:04 PM)Dill Wrote: Agreed. Just to add . . . You're heavily biased towards one side on this issue, so anyone reading this should be aware of that. Also, if you want to start accusing entities of war crimes then Hamas and Hezbollah are guilty of an insane number of them as well. But you probably don't care about that. Don't hold your breath on the American people siding with Palestine, we've had our own run ins with Islamic terrorism. But you do have Tlaib and Omar on your side, so you're in good company. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - CarolinaBengalFanGuy - 05-15-2021 (05-15-2021, 07:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't disagree with any of this, but based on what I said previously I'm going to err on the side of waiting for more information before I condemn Israel. If Hamas is firing rockets from a refugee camp then the refugee camp getting hit is on them, not Israel. While it's possible, I doubt Israel targeted the press deliberately or the building itself for no reason. And again, I'm not a huge Israel backer. Was Israel not just bombed for like a week straight? I don’t really start threads but no one here mentioned it at all last week. But as soon as they retaliate suddenly there’s a thread RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - jason - 05-16-2021 (05-15-2021, 09:24 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Was Israel not just bombed for like a week straight? I don’t really start threads but no one here mentioned it at all last week. But as soon as they retaliate suddenly there’s a thread Israel brings guns to knife fights... Hamas and Hezbollah are scum, but it's my understanding that this latest flare up started with Israel evicting Palestinians, and encroaching on their territory... Again. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Dill - 05-16-2021 (05-15-2021, 09:24 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Was Israel not just bombed for like a week straight? I don’t really start threads but no one here mentioned it at all last week. But as soon as they retaliate suddenly there’s a thread (05-16-2021, 12:24 AM)jason Wrote: Israel brings guns to knife fights... Hamas and Hezbollah are scum, but it's my understanding that this latest flare up started with Israel evicting Palestinians, and encroaching on their territory... Again. Yes. That's not big news in the U.S. until Palestinians start fighting back. Then we hear of Israel's "right to self defense" against the millions they've penned in the massive, open-air prison called "Gaza." RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Arturo Bandini - 05-16-2021 Hamas, blah blah blah, they use kids as shied, blah blah blah. Nethanyaou needed this to stay in power to avoid jail because he is a crook. What a shame. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Dill - 05-16-2021 (05-15-2021, 07:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're heavily biased towards one side on this issue, so anyone reading this should be aware of that. You are an even-handed "centrist" when it comes to Middle East conflict, so anyone reading this should be aware of that. You grant Israel, Palestine, Hamas and all a fair hearing, just as you do Dems and Repubs in this forum. We need that kind of balance in a country where Congress, the Executive and the press heavily favor Israel, and ideologues block attempts to level the informational playing field. (05-15-2021, 07:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also, if you want to start accusing entities of war crimes then Hamas and Hezbollah are guilty of an insane number of them as well. But you probably don't care about that. Don't hold your breath on the American people siding with Palestine, we've had our own run ins with Islamic terrorism. But you do have Tlaib and Omar on your side, so you're in good company. Er, in a response to AU, who mentioned Israeli apartheid, I discussed the ICC's definition of "apartheid," in the context of the U.S. enabling support for the aforementioned Israeli version. If Hamas and Hezbollah have violated the ICC statutes against Apartheid, then I think we should stop enabling them as well and withdraw all military assistance immediately. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-16-2021 (05-15-2021, 09:24 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Was Israel not just bombed for like a week straight? I don’t really start threads but no one here mentioned it at all last week. But as soon as they retaliate suddenly there’s a thread It is curious, is it not? (05-16-2021, 08:31 AM)Dill Wrote: You are an even-handed "centrist" when it comes to Middle East conflict, so anyone reading this should be aware of that. Oooo, your sarcasm gets me hot. I do so love it when you try to be clever. Quote:Er, in a response to AU, who mentioned Israeli apartheid, I discussed the ICC's definition of "apartheid," in the context of the U.S. enabling support for the aforementioned Israeli version. Are Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist organization? I don't think there's a side in this conflict that's clean, you do. One one side we have Israel, who took land they shouldn't have after a defensive war and continue to encroach on that territory. On the other side we have groups, or there predecessors, who actively participated in a war of aggression to destroy the state of Israel and who have engaged in frequent terrorist attacks ever since. You prefer the latter, which is certainly your right, just don't try and pretend the side you choose to support isn't chocked full of terrorists who actively and routinely use women and children as shields. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Dill - 05-16-2021 (05-16-2021, 02:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Are Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist organization? I don't think there's a side in this conflict that's clean, you do. Another unsupported statement. More to come? (05-16-2021, 02:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: One one side we have Israel, who took land they shouldn't have after a defensive war and continue to encroach on that territory. On the other side we have groups, or there predecessors, who actively participated in a war of aggression to destroy the state of Israel and who have engaged in frequent terrorist attacks ever since. You prefer the latter, which is certainly your right, just don't try and pretend the side you choose to support isn't chocked full of terrorists who actively and routinely use women and children as shields. So "one side" engaged in a "defensive war" to take other people's land? And "on the other side," groups,or their predecessors, whose land was taken, tried to stop the steal with a "war of aggression" against the entity stealing their land? And "Frequent attacks ever since"? Sounds like some don't accept their dispossession. "Terrorists" then. Any bias in the distribution of agency here? (05-16-2021, 02:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You prefer the latter, which is certainly your right, just don't try and pretend the side you choose to support isn't chocked full of terrorists who actively and routinely use women and children as shields. Which is better documented, the Israeli Army's use of Palestinian women and children as shields or Hamas'? RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-16-2021 (05-16-2021, 03:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Another unsupported statement. More to come? Oh, I'm sorry. Did I misinterpret your apparent support for terrorist organizations? Simple remedy, just condemn Hamas and Hezbollah in your response and clear the air. Quote:So "one side" engaged in a "defensive war" to take other people's land? So deliberately obtuse. When you are attacked by a coalition of neighbors who have publicly stated their goal is to "drive (you) into the sea" but you end up kicking their ass and expanding your borders to create a buffer zone that's a defensive war. See, they were attacked and then defended themselves. Now, I am on record, several times, as saying that Israel could have seized the moral high ground by not expanding their territory after the war, but they chose not to do so. That doesn't change the fact that they were defending themselves from enemies who attacked them. Quote:And "on the other side," groups,or their predecessors, whose land was taken, tried to stop the steal with a "war of aggression" against the entity stealing their land? And "Frequent attacks ever since"? Sounds like some don't accept their dispossession. "Terrorists" then. Again, are you now denying that Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organizations? You take umbrage to being labeled a supporter of terrorist organizations, yet your posts do everything they can to support such an allegation. Again, you can clear the air by condemning the terrorist organizations of Hamas and Hezbollah (and their Iranian backers as well, but is that a bit much to ask of you?). Quote:Any bias in the distribution of agency here? On your part? Absolutely. Quote:Which is better documented, the Israeli Army's use of Palestinian women and children as shields or Hamas'? Oh, I don't know, you tell me, you're the pedantic answer man. Or are you denying that Hamas routinely uses civilians as human shields? Are you? RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Dill - 05-17-2021 (05-16-2021, 06:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So deliberately obtuse. When you are attacked by a coalition of neighbors who have publicly stated their goal is to "drive (you) into the sea" but you end up kicking their ass and expanding your borders to create a buffer zone that's a defensive war. See, they were attacked and then defended themselves. Now, I am on record, several times, as saying that Israel could have seized the moral high ground by not expanding their territory after the war, but they chose not to do so. That doesn't change the fact that they were defending themselves from enemies who attacked them. It's not a "defensive war" if you are defending territory you have seized from others who rightfully owned it, just as it's not "self defense" if you shoot a guy trying to stop you from hijacking his car. A bystander who intervenes on behalf of the owner is not committing "assault." Your account of the '48 war begins AFTER the Israeli state has seized Palestinian territory belonging to the Arab majority, which territory Israel then "defended" against against the previous owners and an outnumbered coalition of states come to restore their land and rights. In short, the account you are "on record" as defending has the same contours as the "official" Israeli account offered by their Ministry of Foreign Affairs. https://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/history/pages/history-%20the%20state%20of%20israel.aspx. No one is "obtuse" for rejecting the conqueror's version, which simply assumes its "right" to seize other people's land, in favor of a more comprehensive account of the conflict which incorporates victim perspectives and doesn't ignore or suppress historical facts which conflict with the aggressor's version of events. E.g., the "publicly stated goal" of the "Coalition of Neighbors" was to defend Palestinian life and property, not "drive you into the sea." https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations (05-16-2021, 06:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, I don't know, you tell me, you're the pedantic answer man. Or are you denying that Hamas routinely uses civilians as human shields? Are you? LOL you've not been offering "answers"? I'm denying that the Israeli state, which controls press access to Gaza especially during conflict, is my primary source on the question of who is using Palestinian civilians as human shields. IDF allegations that Hamas does is SOP during highly publicized conflicts, for which the Israeli state provides "evidence" for journalists. That's called the "war of perception" in which Israel's control of virtually all media in the conflict region gives it a first-strike propaganda advantage. And I am saying that there is, at moment, better evidence that the IDF has used Palestinian civilians as human shields. Staring with B' TSelem https://www.btselem.org/human_shields. They apparently compiled enough evidence to compel an Israeli court ruling against the practice in 2005. Defense for Children International has also compiled a record of such abuse, but only relating to children and since 2005. https://www.dci-palestine.org/palestinian_children_being_used_as_human_shields As far as Hamas goes, you might find this article from 2014 a useful primer on the difficulty of determining who is doing what in a conflict zone. https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/human-shields-mideast-controversy. Israel's control of the press and its own in-your-face propaganda efforts undermine its own credibility over the long term--at least for those who don't simple accept their version of events at face value. For so many Americans, there is no other version of the Gaza conflict than Israel's. Efforts to question that version or offer conflicting accounts are immediately dismissed as anti-Semitism and support for "terrorism," and "bias." Keep the conversation about that, not human rights, international law, and the historical record. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-17-2021 (05-17-2021, 09:23 AM)Dill Wrote: It's not a "defensive war" if you are defending territory you have seized from others who rightfully owned it, just as it's not "self defense" if you shoot a guy trying to stop you from hijacking his car. A bystander who intervenes on behalf of the owner is not committing "assault." Try being a man for once in your life and actually respond to the whole post. Since you're dodging the question I'll reiterate until you grow a pair and actually answer. Do you condemn Hamas and Hezbollah (and their Iranian backers) as terrorist organizations? Don't try any of your pedantic bullshit, just answer a direct question. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Dill - 05-17-2021 (05-17-2021, 10:28 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Try being a man for once in your life and actually respond to the whole post. Since you're dodging the question I'll reiterate until you grow a pair and actually answer. Do you condemn Hamas and Hezbollah (and their Iranian backers) as terrorist organizations? Don't try any of your pedantic bullshit, just answer a direct question. Careful. You don't want to accumulate a list of accusations--like I'm "heavily biased towards one side," and obfuscating, "dodging the question," and not responding to "whole" posts--which will inevitably fall back on you. And I would also suggest that "manliness" is not a proper standard for rational discussion of politics and religion. In this case it is just a way of framing issues in black and white terms and favoring simplistic, unsupported assertions. The incentive then is for real men, who have grown a pair, to jump to conclusions and to defend them by other than rational means (e.g., ad hominem), reducing historical facts and legal principles to so much "pedantic bullshit." Discussion becomes argument and argument becomes about ego, not the issue under discussion. Rather I suggest that the "pedantic bullshit" approach is preferable, as it sets discussion on a defensible historical and legal basis and values logical consistency. Now to the single question you've decided has to be answered: I haven't yet decided whether Hezbollah and Hamas are "terrorist organizations," for two reasons: 1. I am aware of no definition which, if held consistently, would not include Israel. Current definitions and applications are "heavily biased in favor of one side"--the side that took the "terrorists'" land. 2. And I take seriously the armed national liberation exemption in the 1998 Arab Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism: "All cases of struggle by whatever means, including armed struggle, against foreign occupation and aggression for liberation and self-determination, in accordance with the principles of international law, shall not be regarded as an offence." https://www.unodc.org/images/tldb-f/conv_arab_terrorism.en.pdf I'd like to review possible objections to that before settling down on one side or another, as opposed to simply accepting definitions of Israel, the U.S. State Department, and the EU. In any case, the question of terrorism is closely linked to the point made in my last "whole post" which you have not addressed--namely that Israel took by force the lives and property of Palestinian Arabs in order to have that territory you claim they were merely "defending," and only then took a little more to create a buffer. I'll add that they sought to frighten the Arab populations from those lands by, among other things, village massacres. One must be "heavily biased towards one side"--that of the Israelis--to see such an appropriation and ethnic cleansing, carried about by people most of whom had just arrived in Palestine, as "a defensive war." Now they hold millions hostage in Gaza, some of whom respond much the same way many Americans would--as "real men" with guns. RE: Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 05-17-2021 (05-17-2021, 02:39 PM)Dill Wrote: Careful. That's a long way of saying no. Thank you, for at least giving us a clear picture of where you stand on this issue. Both Hamas and Hezbollah are clearly terrorist organization and frequently engage in acts of terror. As I find terrorism highly offensive, and those who refuse to condemn it equally offensive, I will leave you to your false equivalencies and defense of the indefensible. Thank you. |