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+---- Thread: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges (/Thread-Jan-6-Committee-refers-Trump-and-others-for-criminal-charges)
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Nately120 - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Unfortunately, I believe that, along with a host of similar histories of unfulfillable campaign promises has been the modus operandi of American politicians from both sides, for a very long time.
Trump could pardon them if he wins and feels like actually doing it, though couldn't he? The thing is that people probably shouldn't want to elect a guy because he's going to release prisoners from serving their sentences?
How would conseravtives feel if Biden had a platform of "elect me in 2024 and I'll pardon Hunter once they find him guilty!" and people were like "Woaahhh, that would really piss off conservatives! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!"
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - SunsetBengal - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump could pardon them if he wins and feels like actually doing it, though couldn't he? The thing is that people probably shouldn't want to elect a guy because he's going to release prisoners from serving their sentences?
How would conseravtives feel if Biden had a platform of "elect me in 2024 and I'll pardon Hunter once they find him guilty!" and people were like "Woaahhh, that would really piss off conservatives! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!"
That is moot. DJT is not going to win another election. First off, a significant portion of his 2016 voters have died..
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - samhain - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 06:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly, but this is where it gets nitpicky over Trump's intent vs interpretation.
I'm sure Trump's camp is arguing that he never explicitly said to do it, and it's not his fault that those who stormed the Capitol Building chose to interpret it that way and did what they did.
But he sure never told them to immediately stop or not go once he found out what they were doing (until hours later at least), thus giving impression he did intend for them to do what they did (or at least he didn't care if they did).
Idk. I'm no Trump apologist, but these people are both unhinged and stupid. Stupid is the key word. They are entirely motivated by ideology. Because of this, they are susceptible to taking anything that comes out of his mouth and using it to confirm whatever dumb, crazy shit they might want to do anyway.
I think it's totally possible that Trump verbally stoked the fire without really understanding the depth of the stupidity that he was encouraging. It would be like me telling my kid to go play in traffic, him getting run over, and then me being legitimately shocked that he actually was stupid enough to misunderstand the context.
I know it sounds like I'm defending him, but I'm not. I just give a lot more weight to the possibility that the Jan 6th rioters are functional morons. They went out that day to do moronic shit, and when they got a chance and an excuse from the great leader they were in with both feet. I don't think even Trump thought they were really that stupid. I also fully believe that if his team could have kept Guiliani, Powell and Mike Lindell out of the conversation after election week, a lot of this stuff never would have happened. If the grown ups on his team had prevailed, things would have been much less interesting. Personally, I'd like to see those 3 untreated mental patients locked up even more than the Proud Boys.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Nately120 - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is moot. DJT is not going to win another election. First off, a significant portion of his 2016 voters have died..
Harsh, but fair. I mean, I was talking more about what people want. Trump is probably getting the nomination, though. Hell, if he loses in 2024 I don't see why he wouldn't just claim it was rigged and run in 2028 again.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - samhain - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Harsh, but fair. I mean, I was talking more about what people want. Trump is probably getting the nomination, though. Hell, if he loses in 2024 I don't see why he wouldn't just claim it was rigged and run in 2028 again.
Well, according to Nikki Haley, he'll probably be dead by then by virtue of his age alone.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - samhain - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is moot. DJT is not going to win another election. First off, a significant portion of his 2016 voters have died..
I mean, it's not impossible.
Both Biden and Trump have the same advantage. Their opposition is old, relatively tiresome, and quite possibly losing their mind. Strategists on both sides have to be telling themselves: "Surely to god we can beat THIS guy." Right?
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Nately120 - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:50 PM)samhain Wrote: Well, according to Nikki Haley, he'll probably be dead by then by virtue of his age alone.
She'd better hope so, or an 82 year old Trump will mop the floor with her in the primaries.
(05-04-2023, 09:53 PM)samhain Wrote: I mean, it's not impossible.
Both Biden and Trump have the same advantage. Their opposition is old, relatively tiresome, and quite possibly losing their mind. Strategists on both sides have to be telling themselves: "Surely to god we can beat THIS guy." Right?
It's possible Trump wins, sure. The last 2 elections were decided by a pretty thin number of votes across a few key states, really but the EC makes both elections look like blowouts. With that being said, Trump likely beat the only candidate he could in Hillary, and Biden beat the only candidate he could in Trump.
Democrats learned their lesson and only gave Trump the chance to beat Hillary once. The GOP seems intent on giving Biden the only guy he can beat once one more time.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Dill - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Unfortunately, I believe that, along with a host of similar histories of unfulfillable campaign promises has been the modus operandi of American politicians from both sides, for a very long time.
"Both sides" have campaigned on pardoning rioters?
Surely there is something new and beyond the pale here.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Dill - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 06:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly, but this is where it gets nitpicky over Trump's intent vs interpretation.
I'm sure Trump's camp is arguing that he never explicitly said to do it, and it's not his fault that those who stormed the Capitol Building chose to interpret it that way and did what they did.
But he sure never told them to immediately stop or not go once he found out what they were doing (until hours later at least), thus giving impression he did intend for them to do what they did (or at least he didn't care if they did).
Quick question: How did moving the crowd to the Capitol fit in with the
rest of Trump's plan, e.g., the Green Bay Sweep?
That should give us some sense of his "intent."
Claiming the election was "stolen" and calling a crowd to be on hand at
precisely the moment the election was to be certified, knowing many were armed
and telling them to take their country back . . .
Then, as Commander in Chief, watching them riot in the Capitol for over two hours
ignoring pleas to stop it.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - SunsetBengal - 05-05-2023
(05-04-2023, 10:13 PM)Dill Wrote: "Both sides" have campaigned on pardoning rioters?
Surely there is something new and beyond the pale here.
I didn't say campaigned on pardoning rioters, specifically. I said ran on unfulfillable promises.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - ochocincos - 05-05-2023
(05-04-2023, 10:23 PM)Dill Wrote: Quick question: How did moving the crowd to the Capitol fit in with the
rest of Trump's plan, e.g., the Green Bay Sweep?
That should give us some sense of his "intent."
Claiming the election was "stolen" and calling a crowd to be on hand at
precisely the moment the election was to be certified, knowing many were armed
and telling them to take their country back . . .
Then, as Commander in Chief, watching them riot in the Capitol for over two hours
ignoring pleas to stop it.
I'm in agreement with you, but I can see Trump's side argue that "it's not my fault they chose to do that, I was just talking and they chose to take an action on it. Free speech!"
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Arturo Bandini - 05-05-2023
I take no responsability at all always been his motto. And make things up to praise himself.
Not gonna change now.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 09:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm in agreement with you, but I can see Trump's side argue that "it's not my fault they chose to do that, I was just talking and they chose to take an action on it. Free speech!"
The first amendment doesn't allow you to incite violence or suggest any other criminal act for that matter. As we learned in the case of Dominion v. Fox, free speech doesn't allow you to knowingly make up lies about a person or product either.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Dill - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 07:29 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I didn't say campaigned on pardoning rioters, specifically. I said ran on unfulfillable promises.
To the degree that is true, I think it is a structural problem. The state is pulled in different directions
by different groups, whose goal is often to cancel the other side's programs.
Politicians can only set goals and hope people will vote them in to accomplish those goals.
Notice that some goals do get fulfilled. Trump got tax cuts for the rich, but couldn't get Mexico to pay for the wall.
Obama got the ACA passed, but had to compromise in ways that kept some problems around. etc.
Both Joe and trump promised to get us out of A-stan--and did (though I didn't agree with that goal).
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - ochocincos - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 12:52 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: The first amendment doesn't allow you to incite violence or suggest any other criminal act for that matter. As we learned in the case of Dominion v. Fox, free speech doesn't allow you to knowingly make up lies about a person or product either.
I never said they'd win the argument lol, just that I could see them saying it.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - ochocincos - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 01:21 PM)Dill Wrote: To the degree that is true, I think it is a structural problem. The state is pulled in different directions
but different groups, whose goal is often to cancel the other side's programs.
Politicians can only set goals and hope people will vote them in to accomplish those goals.
Notice that some goals do get fulfilled. Trump got tax cuts for the rich, but couldn't get Mexico to pay for the wall.
Obama got the ACA passed, but had to compromise in ways that kept some problems around. etc.
Both Joe and trump promised to get us out of A-stan--and did (though I didn't agree with that goal).
To the bolded, that's what politicians are expected to do - compromise to get to an agreement for SOME change.
Trump's strategy is to try to strong-arm or go around opposition. He doesn't want (or knows how) to work with people, he just wants everything his way.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - GMDino - 06-18-2023
FINALLY! The gop is getting to the REAL root of what happened during the "tourist visit" on January 6!
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Republican Rep. Paul Gosar wants to “make everybody deputies” and offer them “a bounty” for every “undercover” law enforcement and “antifa” they can identify from the January 6th Capitol footage. <a href="https://t.co/aH28Al2ijn">pic.twitter.com/aH28Al2ijn</a></p>— PatriotTakes ?? (@patriottakes) <a href="https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1670198215445037056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Dill - 06-19-2023
(06-18-2023, 03:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: FINALLY! The gop is getting to the REAL root of what happened during the "tourist visit" on January 6!
Such mixed messaging.
The Capitol Insurrection was led by ANTIFA and the FBI (if you can believe they were working together!).
Sedition=BAD!
But the people who followed them are heroes and patriots deserving of pardons.
Sedition=GOOD!
And the guy who sicced the mob on the Capitol is somehow NOT responsible.
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - BengalYankee - 06-19-2023
(05-04-2023, 09:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is moot. DJT is not going to win another election. First off, a significant portion of his 2016 voters have died..
I never want to question the best moderator on this website, but did not DJT receive more votes in 2020 than in 2016?
RE: Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges - Nately120 - 06-19-2023
(06-18-2023, 03:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: FINALLY! The gop is getting to the REAL root of what happened during the "tourist visit" on January 6!
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Republican Rep. Paul Gosar wants to “make everybody deputies” and offer them “a bounty” for every “undercover” law enforcement and “antifa” they can identify from the January 6th Capitol footage. <a href="https://t.co/aH28Al2ijn">pic.twitter.com/aH28Al2ijn</a></p>— PatriotTakes ?? (@patriottakes) <a href="https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1670198215445037056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
This reminds me of when I was 5 years old and I was, for a brief period of time, convinced there was a chance that I was the only human on earth and everyone else was a robot pretending to be human.