(10-24-2023, 05:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wish I could have your optimism. The issue is that the rhetoric we are seeing out of the MAGA movement is shockingly similar to the rhetoric that came out of fascist movements in the early twentieth century. You could quite literally pull quotes from that era and in contemporary politics and you would have a hard time discerning them. There were fascists embedded in our federal government and plots to overthrow our government were in motion prior to our involvement in WWII. What saved us then was our people's belief in democratic principles. It was our belief that by voting we could make a difference and effect change.

This is why those that study democratic theory look at what is going on right now and have serious concern. What prevented the demise of our government is no longer there. The propaganda efforts have been fruitful in this where we even had Trump in New Hampshire telling people "So we have to be careful, you gotta get out there and you got to watch those voters. You don't have to vote, don't worry about voting. The voting, we got plenty of votes, you gotta watch." That is the sort of language that concerns democratic theorists and it only the most recent example of efforts from the MAGA movement that are very anti-democratic.

I point all of this out to say that I sincerely fear that a large portion of the 2A movement is drinking this propaganda up. What I hope is that there will be a turning point where these people will see the dangers before it is too late, but I think it is more of a frog in boiling water scenario. I joke around about the whole Gadsden/thin-blue-line paradox that I see constantly, but that sort of cognitive dissonance truly is a display of the sort of concern I have with the modern 2A movement.

Our country is an anomaly given how long our democratic government has existed, and the track record for regaining a democratic government once it is lost ain't great. I try to keep it (relatively) light hearted in here, but this is my sincere position on all of this. I am 90% certain that I will see the fall of democracy in this country during my lifetime.

(10-24-2023, 06:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think it is interesting to see the concerns we have no speaker. In reality, my guess is most people fi asked when Pelosi or McCarthy was the speaker knew she was the speaker. Then of those asked a follow up question of what are the speaker's responsibilities, most would have no idea. The people is the forum are engaged whether on right or left or in the middle. That is not true in the general population. I would guess the majority have no idea we don't have a speaker right now.

(10-24-2023, 06:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think it is interesting to see the concerns we have no speaker. In reality, my guess is most people fi asked when Pelosi or McCarthy was the speaker knew she was the speaker. Then of those asked a follow up question of what are the speaker's responsibilities, most would have no idea. The people is the forum are engaged whether on right or left or in the middle. That is not true in the general population. I would guess the majority have no idea we don't have a speaker right now.

As for the GOP's inability to lead by voting a speaker in, it is not a good luck to th engaged. But, if it stops spending billions on humanitarian aide to Ukraine, I hope we don't get a speaker. The UN and other allies need to step up and support all humanitarian aide, it is the least they can do. As for aide to Gaza, I say no way. Those who say the Palestinians did not want Hamas are not informed. The majority of Gaza voted in Hamas. It would be like us giving aide to the Germans, many of them were also not Nazis, but we did not send them aide, so why to Gaza?????

Biden and Congress to be hell bent in stopping Hamas for their atrocities period.

5:30 PM was the deadline for announced candidates for Speaker. Candidate Forum at 6 PM.

Officially Announced Candidates to the House Republican Conference include:

Byron Donalds (FL)
Chuck Fleischmann (TN)
Mark Green (TN)
Kevin Hern (OK)
Mike Johnson (LA)
Roger Williams (TX)

— Rep. Elise Stefanik (@RepStefanik) October 24, 2023

(10-24-2023, 05:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wish I could have your optimism. The issue is that the rhetoric we are seeing out of the MAGA movement is shockingly similar to the rhetoric that came out of fascist movements in the early twentieth century. You could quite literally pull quotes from that era and in contemporary politics and you would have a hard time discerning them. There were fascists embedded in our federal government and plots to overthrow our government were in motion prior to our involvement in WWII. What saved us then was our people's belief in democratic principles. It was our belief that by voting we could make a difference and effect change.

This is why those that study democratic theory look at what is going on right now and have serious concern. What prevented the demise of our government is no longer there. The propaganda efforts have been fruitful in this where we even had Trump in New Hampshire telling people "So we have to be careful, you gotta get out there and you got to watch those voters. You don't have to vote, don't worry about voting. The voting, we got plenty of votes, you gotta watch." That is the sort of language that concerns democratic theorists and it only the most recent example of efforts from the MAGA movement that are very anti-democratic.

I point all of this out to say that I sincerely fear that a large portion of the 2A movement is drinking this propaganda up. What I hope is that there will be a turning point where these people will see the dangers before it is too late, but I think it is more of a frog in boiling water scenario. I joke around about the whole Gadsden/thin-blue-line paradox that I see constantly, but that sort of cognitive dissonance truly is a display of the sort of concern I have with the modern 2A movement.

Our country is an anomaly given how long our democratic government has existed, and the track record for regaining a democratic government once it is lost ain't great. I try to keep it (relatively) light hearted in here, but this is my sincere position on all of this. I am 90% certain that I will see the fall of democracy in this country during my lifetime.

(10-24-2023, 06:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well put. If fascism takes hold in the USA it's going to be enabled by people who are convinced what they are doing is preventing fascism. 

Installing Trump isn't fascism if you convince people he won democratically and his opponents were installed illegally.  Overthrowing or circumventing our current democracy is fighting fascism to a lot of people. 

I'm pretty sure people believe that:
Biden was undemocratically installed. 
Biden is a fascist. 
Biden will end America. 

If you "knew" those were all true, would you really think doing anything to get him out of power and heal our corrupt system was wrong or anything other than patriotic?  Before 2020 I said that people are going to say "If democracy gave me Biden instead of Trump, maybe I don't like democracy anymore" but I was wrong.  People are just agreeing to deny reality and say if we don't win, the will of the people wasn't heard.  The people who will enable fascism will believe they are fighting fascism.

(10-24-2023, 07:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're assuming that such a move would could only come from the right.  I certainly wouldn't speak for Bel, but I don't think a move from the left is outside the realm of possibility.

(10-24-2023, 07:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're assuming that such a move would could only come from the right.  I certainly wouldn't speak for Bel, but I don't think a move from the left is outside the realm of possibility.

SECOND BALLOT

JOHNSON -97
OTHER - 34
DONALDS - 31
GREEN - 21
WILLIAMS - 20

Green drops. Williams out.

Other continues to show strength, a bad sign for Johnson.

— Jake Sherman (@JakeSherman) October 25, 2023

(10-24-2023, 10:27 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If Trump wins in 2024 I’m not ruling it out. He lost the last two by a wide margin. Only way he wins is if the election system breaches and information he stole from the government is used to rig the election.

We have a new speaker designate.

MIKE JOHNSON has 128 votes and is the second GOP nominee of the day.

— Jake Sherman (@JakeSherman) October 25, 2023

(10-24-2023, 10:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm pretty sure the 2016 and 2020 elections were both decided by a relatively narrow amount of votes spread across a number of key rust-belt states.  Trump's ability to win legit is very real.  Either way, he's going to say it's rigged.  Either it was rigged and he lost and should have won or it was rigged and he won but should have won by more.

It'd be like if Patrick Mahommes said the last super bowl was rigged so the Eagles would win because Joe Biden's wife is from Philly.

(10-24-2023, 07:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're more pessimistic than I am, which is saying something.  It would be odd for people advocating for firearms ownership by anyone who chooses would then take the route of usurping the government.  Both sides can, and do, buy firearms.  You'd think restricting the sales would be more in line with this goal, seeing as how firearms ownership leans heavily to the right at the moment.

(10-24-2023, 07:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's more likely now to come from the right.  The left can whine about gerrymandering and the electoral college and altering the supreme court, but right now the right is led by a guy who is telling everyone that multiple branches of our government are outright corrupt and under fascist control and need dismantled.  Biden is an illegally installed fascist.  The DOJ is run by fascists thugs who purposefully target republicans and they're coming for you after they unjustly ruin Trump...I guess the legislative branch is corrupt too, I'm sure there is something out there about it.

I'm used to hearing people complain about our government and our system and our country and how much we need to 2A this and overthrow that, but I've never heard such things mentioned by such powerful people with so much mainstream influence.  So if nothing else, I'll say the left isn't going to be overthrowing anything until we can make it out of our current predicament.  Then again, if Trump wins in 2024 maybe a bunch of lefties lose their collective minds and start stockpiling arms.  I've spent most of my life around white people, so my view of people who collect guns to "fight the government someday" is pretty limited to them.  

(10-24-2023, 06:31 PM)pally Wrote:  There was 1 election in Gaza and Hamas never left.  over 1 million children have been born in Gaza since the Hamas takeover.  I thought conservatives were all pro-life...if so why are you so willing to condemn those children to a sure death without aid?

Do you seriously think there would be no negative impact if the federal government shuts down other than a denial of foreign aid?  

(10-25-2023, 10:40 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Then why do Palestinians support Hamas now, even in the US if they don't want them running their military efforts? The people have an option right now, turn on Hamas, work with Israel to get rid of Hamas sparing lives. I don't want anyone to die, but unfortunately Hamas's attack on civilians, on babies was horrid. Is your solution Israel walk away and allow terrorists to win? Hamas has an option, quit sending missiles into Israel, wave the white flag, lay down their weapons and turn in those who killed innocent people.

Please provide proof where a government shutdown in the last 25 years has had a negative impact on the economy? I think you will find all were paid eventually even those who did not work. It is like a paid vacation for many. I knew many at the IRS, they loved it because they knew they would get paid eventually and did not have to work during the shutdown.

(10-25-2023, 10:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: From what I have read it's not a majority that support them other than they get *some* protection from them, but rather they have no choice.  

It's like asking why did the Iraqis not rise up against Saddam, of the Russians against Putin.  Leaders that choose to lead by violence and oppression don't NEED support.  They rely on fear.

The Hamas attack was horrific.  Israel retaliating and killing more civilians and babies doesn't make anything any better.  

I don't know what the answer is to ending these wars but I am with you that I don't want anyone to die.

(10-25-2023, 11:44 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, the majority in Gaza do support Hamas according to polling. However, we need to be careful with that. Hamas does rule by fear and violence, so that support can be artificial. In addition, you have a population of people that have been treated by Israel how we treated the Native Americans in this country. They have had their land taken, put into an essential reservation with guarantees that have been broken time and again. That is going to breed animosity against Israel among the population which Hamas helps stoke.

On top of that, Netanyahu has helped Hamas grow. He elevated the role of Hamas intentionally instead of the more moderate Palestinian Authority. Why? He doesn't want the two-state solution and by allowing Hamas to grow more powerful he sought the justification for Israel to take over all of the territory because he knew Hamas would do what Hamas is doing now.

So the problem is that Hamas has support simply because they are what the people of Gaza know and Hamas and Israel have sincerely worked in tandem to create a perfect storm of support for Hamas in opposition to Israel.

(10-25-2023, 11:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: I had seen something about Netanyahu aiding the Hamas growth but didn't know how much weight to put behind it because 1) I don't know enough about it and 2) I've always felt he was no good, so I didn't want personal opinions get in the way.

(10-25-2023, 12:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: How did all this complicated foreign policy talk leak into this bitterly amusing thread about GOP infighting?