(03-22-2024, 08:58 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: How exactly do you deal with someone that is not interested in peace but only wants your head on a platter?

Hamas only wants peace when their back is against the wall and they are in danger of being wiped out. History has shown us that already so I'm all for just finishing them. 
You can try to keep the civilian casualties low, but it's not gonna happen with the way Hamas fights back

(03-22-2024, 09:34 AM)Dill Wrote: Well you start by not insuring Hamas is funded so they'll obstruct Palestinian peacemakers who might have a shot at success. 

Whence comes the notion that the Netanyahu government, and the voters who keep him in power, want "peace"? 

They want land, and they'll sacrifice "peace" to get and keep it. 

Their support for Hamas to prevent peace has spun out of control now. 

(03-22-2024, 10:30 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: ?? Hamas hasn't ever wanted peace, don't you know your history?

(03-22-2024, 10:43 AM)Dill Wrote: That's why Netanhayu insured Hamas had enough funding to retain power in Gaza, 

so that it could successfully oppose Fatah and the PLO, 

who did want peace.

That Hamas DIDN'T want peace was the point of funding them.

Netanyahu didn't want it either. 

PS It's also not true, as a matter of historical record, that "Hamas hasn't ever wanted peace." 

(03-22-2024, 10:51 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Sorry, Hamas has cried wolf one to many times now for me to believe they ever had peaceful intent.

(03-22-2024, 10:51 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Sorry, Hamas has cried wolf one to many times now for me to believe they ever had peaceful intent.

(03-22-2024, 11:16 AM)Dill Wrote: You appealed to history. Hamas began as a charity service organization concerned with helping widows,
orphans and the poor. It did not morph into a political/military organization until the late 1980s. 

But I don't get what point you are trying to make here.

My original argument was 

1) Hamas wanted to fight Israel

2) Hamas fought other Palestinian groups that wanted peace.

3) Netanyahu didn't want peace.

4) So he helped fund Hamas so it would check/block the Palestinians who wanted peace.

To all that you've objected that Hamas didn't/doesn't want peace. 

Which is why Netanyahu supported them. 

Why are you motivated to remind me that Hamas doesn't want peace, when my point was that they don't?

(03-22-2024, 08:22 AM)Dill Wrote: First thing that comes to mind is my assertion about the frequency and extent that Israel violates IHL.

But you don't refute it. Just "note" it.  Because you are not interested in whether the assertion is true or not. 

Also, I often put together posts over time. If they respond to polemics of your "shoot the messenger" type,

then I usually let them sit overnight and review them before posting. 

(03-22-2024, 12:50 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Netanyahu wasn't against peace, he listed his demands for peace which seem appropriate given the situation.
Hamas eradicated.
Palestinians deradicalized
and i forget the other one.

What he won't accept is any peace deal that weakens Israel and leaves them unable to defend themselves which is just common sense. 


Now in what way did Netanyahu support Hamas? That i have never really heard before and I'd like for some proof of it.

(03-22-2024, 12:56 PM)GMDino Wrote: Its proven he helped shore up Hamas by allowing outside funds and support.  

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

He never wanted peace.  He wanted a boogie man so he could run and rule as a tough guy.  Now he can go kill innocent people in the name of "peace".

(03-22-2024, 12:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why would I do that?  Your position is your position.  Why would I waste my time arguing with an ideologue who has their mind firmly made up?  You answered my questions, I answered yours.  Silly little jabs from you, as above, aside I'd say we're good.  Thank you again for your direct answers, they were most enlightening.

(03-22-2024, 12:50 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Netanyahu wasn't against peace, he listed his demands for peace which seem appropriate given the situation.
Hamas eradicated.
Palestinians deradicalized
and i forget the other one.

What he won't accept is any peace deal that weakens Israel and leaves them unable to defend themselves which is just common sense. 

Now in what way did Netanyahu support Hamas? That i have never really heard before and I'd like for some proof of it.

(03-22-2024, 01:27 PM)Dill Wrote: My position is that the IDF commits war crimes. That's a position that rests on a factual, historical record.
 
Your position is they don't commit war crimes, because acknowledging they do "supports terrorism." You'll stick by whatever the IDF says. 

One characteristic of the ideologue is that he holds positions separated from evidence, and which cannot be affected by evidence.

That leaves ad hominem as a primary weapon, along with double standards and obfuscation. 

So of course you want to denounce "antisemites" and "Hamas supporters" but won't waste time arguing factual ground with "ideologues."

(03-22-2024, 12:50 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Now in what way did Netanyahu support Hamas? That i have never really heard before and I'd like for some proof of it.

(03-22-2024, 01:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cool.  You've posted this all before, and I've addressed it before  You've said literally nothing new in this post.  I understand what you think and why you think it.  I find your position, exemplified by your direct answers to my questions, repugnant.  Unless you have something new to add there's nothing further to discuss.  Thank you.

(03-22-2024, 04:41 PM)Dill Wrote: Your mouth has been writing a lot of checks on this and other threads.

I say let's see what happens when we cash some of them.

Only then will we know whether you have really "addressed" what I think,

or whether the checks come back marked "insufficient funds."

(03-20-2024, 06:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:4. I have said that Hamas needs to be destroyed if a two-state solution is going to work. Do you consider that statement "support for Hamas"?
Again, show your work. What is your standard for determining whether a statement about the Gaza war supports Hamas or not?

Actually, I really haven't, as I do not think a two state solution will ever work.  I do think Hamas needs to be destroyed, and it would be simple to do so if Iran and other nations such as Qatar stopped actively funding/assisting them.  But the two state solution is a non-starter at the end of the day.  Neither party really wants it and the respective religious hardliners will never allow it.  Could there be peace?  Yes, and I think it was inching in that direction with several Arab nations moving towards normalizing relations with Israel.  Which is exactly what Iran and their terrorist lackeys in Hamas wanted to stop when they invaded Israel on 10/07/23.  They got a lot of what they wanted since, and they're relying on people like you in the West to get them the rest of their wish list.  And they are willing to sacrifice every single civilian in Gaza to achieve that goal.  Which is why they are definitively, and demonstrably, worse than Israel in every regard and no equation of substance can reasonably be drawn.  Clear enough for you?

(03-20-2024, 06:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: LOL, thank you for the editorial.
Quote:You do me the "courtesy" of calling me a racist, antisemitic, Hamas supporter, while dodging my questions about your criteria for defining "terrorist supporters." That's not the behavior of someone looking for "an honest answer."

Well, I do find you to be antisemitic, but I do not automatically equate criticism of Israel to antisemitism.  I have never dodged your questions on my criteria, I have detailed them quite clearly in this very thread.  Now, onto the actual questions.

(03-20-2024, 06:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:2. To repeat: I'll state "unequivocally" that Hamas meets the U.S./EU definition of a terrorist organization. But because the U.S. doesn't apply the label consistently to all who merit it, I regard its application as generally political rather than descriptive. The job of propagandists is to get people to accept and apply such labels without thinking; I won't go along. That means nothing has changed in the last four days; I still don't use the term "terrorist" as a descriptor. 

Copy that.  So Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organization, nor are any of the 9/11 hijackers terrorists in your eyes.  Again, noted.

(03-20-2024, 06:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:3. Not sure how you are defining "atrocities." Bad stuff Arabs do? If you mean war crimes and violations of IHL, then I'd say the record shows the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life. But when I've mentioned their sordid record in the past you've simply denied/ignored the facts or introduced a time limit. Do you mean just since last year or what? 

You could stick to the actual dictionary definition of the word atrocity, or continue with your hyperbole.  So, you do think the IDF is a worse actor than Hamas.  Thank you, and again, noted.

(03-22-2024, 01:15 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: OMG he allowed work permits so that the Palestinians could have access to better paying jobs and improve their SOL, and would pave the way for peace.

The other part looks like he THOUGHT he would work with Hamas vs the PLO to achieve peace, but it back fired. 
But I didn't see anything that says he directly Funded them as you claim.