(02-17-2024, 10:56 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Never thought I'd be in a thread against Sociopathissteelerfan, Belsnickel and Dil. A monumental task indeed.

 So, a couple things to address here.

You know me better than that Dill. I know it's been a while since we've traded tl;dr paragraphs, but come on. Yes, I do know that "Gaza" is more technically termed as "The Gaza Strip" and not "Gaza" as in a single location known as Gaza City within the Gaza Strip, but rather a wider territory between Egypt and Israel.
 
My point was not to say they "left Gaza" as in the territory. I'm completely aware there's closed borders to be crossed and that you can't just cosplay illegal immigrants coming to the US.
 
The point I was making is that they made a choice, and that choice was that they decided they were not going to let themselves die with Hamas in Gaza City. So, they gathered whatever they could and high tailed it out of there. Why? Because they were smart enough to know that if you live amongst a group of people who want to commit genocide then you better run for the hills when those genocidal maniacs decide to attack the ones whom they wish to commit genocide against.
 
The "Nazi controlled state" statement was a figure of speech. I know the Gaza Strip isn't a sovereign nation, nor was I ever trying to imply that. You're attempting to complicate something that doesn't need to be complicated by lecturing me on the history of the Palestinian and Israeli conflict as if all of that matters.
 
I’m not here to play tit for tat Dill, because again, the displacement, the incursions, the blockades, the occupation, the accords, none of that matters in relation to what I am saying.
 
The basis of my entire argument concerns genocidal intentions realized by literal actions and how the opposition decides to respond to it.
 
You can go through the history of the conflict and complain about Jewish occupation all you want, but it's irrelevant to the argument. It's as simple a question as this.
 
Does Hamas want to annihilate Israel and has stated so? Yes.
 
Have they violently attacked Israel and killed innocent people as a means to show their genocidal intentions? Yes.
 
Therefore, if Israel decides to respond by completely obliterating Hamas, and the way for them to do that is by killing Hamas and destroying any capabilities they have of carrying out their genocidal intentions, then anyone who does not want to die should do their best to flee to somewhere that Israel is less likely to target until the conflict is over. If Israel really wanted to kill everyone, they would have done it already.





And what I'm telling you is none of that matters within the confines of the argument being presented here. I am not concerned with who has done bad/questionable/immoral etc... actions against who in an ongoing conflict. What I am concerned with is who wants to commit genocide against who and have they acted on it.



Yes, they are absolutely deciding to stay. If 1 million people flee an area and you stay there and die, you chose that. You're acting like Israeli soldiers have been commanded to mow down every Palestinian on sight or that there's absolutely no place to go where they can increase their chances of survival.

(02-18-2024, 10:40 AM)samhain Wrote: Fine example of detached gamer dork armchair geopolitics.  Kill em all just like in call of duty.  Easy judgement to make in the 20 minutes a day that you actually step out from behind your console.  

It's fun living in world where little kids are getting blown to bits as a dude half a world away with a cartoon character avatar spends his weekend telling everyone how awesome he thinks it is.

(02-18-2024, 12:21 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: None of that was even remotely close to anything I've said.

Please point to me in any sentence I've posted here where I've said any of this was awesome or that everyone should be killed.

Your post is a fine example of gross exaggeration with zero substance. How about instead of making a childish attempt at insulting me, you spend the 20 minutes to form an actual argument. Right, I'm the gamer dork when you're the one bringing up call of duty as if it were a compelling rebuttal.

(02-18-2024, 02:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: While I do not agree with your position, you are correct.  You never said anything that could lead a reasonable person to conclude this about you.

(02-17-2024, 10:56 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I’m not here to play tit for tat Dill, because again, the displacement, the incursions, the blockades, the occupation, the accords, none of that matters in relation to what I am saying.
The basis of my entire argument concerns genocidal intentions realized by literal actions and how the opposition decides to respond to it.
You can go through the history of the conflict and complain about Jewish occupation all you want, but it's irrelevant to the argument. It's as simple a question as this.
Does Hamas want to annihilate Israel and has stated so? Yes.
Have they violently attacked Israel and killed innocent people as a means to show their genocidal intentions? Yes.
Therefore, if Israel decides to respond by completely obliterating Hamas, and the way for them to do that is by killing Hamas and destroying any capabilities they have of carrying out their genocidal intentions, then anyone who does not want to die should do their best to flee to somewhere that Israel is less likely to target until the conflict is over. If Israel really wanted to kill everyone, they would have done it already.
And what I'm telling you is none of that matters within the confines of the argument being presented here. I am not concerned with who has done bad/questionable/immoral etc... actions against who in an ongoing conflict. What I am concerned with is who wants to commit genocide against who and have they acted on it.

(02-17-2024, 10:56 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Yes, they are absolutely deciding to stay. If 1 million people flee an area and you stay there and die, you chose that. You're acting like Israeli soldiers have been commanded to mow down every Palestinian on sight or that there's absolutely no place to go where they can increase their chances of survival.

(02-17-2024, 10:56 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Never thought I'd be in a thread against Sociopathissteelerfan, Belsnickel and Dil. A monumental task indeed.

Quote:Israel accused of opening fire on Gaza civilians waiting for food as Hamas says war death toll over 30,000 people
By Imtiaz Tyab, Erin Lyall, Tucker Reals
Updated on: February 29, 2024 / 8:53 AM EST / CBS News

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Tel Aviv — Witnesses and medics said Israeli forces opened fire Thursday on thousands of Palestinians who had gathered in an open area of Gaza City hoping to receive food and other desperately needed humanitarian aid. Hamas, which controlled the Gaza Strip for almost two decades before it sparked the [url=https://www.cbsnews.com/israel-gaza-conflict/]current war with its Oct. 7 terror attack on Israel, said Israeli forces "targeted a gathering of thousands of citizens while they were waiting to receive food aid." 


Gaza's Hamas-run Ministry of Health said at least 104 people were killed and more than 750 others wounded.   


The Israel Defense Forces said the casualties were the result of "a violent gathering of Gazan residents" around aid trucks, during which it said dozens of people were "injured as a result of being crushed and trampled." 


An IDF official said later that after the chaos, at a nearby crossing point between north and south Gaza, Israeli forces first fired warning shots and then opened fire on civilians who rushed toward aid trucks and an accompanying IDF tank. The official said IDF forces had "fired at those who posed a threat," and stressed that the incident remained under review.
Palestinians receive medical care at Kamal Edwan Hospital in Beit Lahia, in the northern Gaza Strip, Feb. 29, 2024, after Israeli soldiers allegedly opened fire at Gaza residents who rushed toward trucks loaded with humanitarian aid.AFP VIA GETTY


The head of one hospital in the decimated Palestinian territory said at least 10 bodies were brought in from the scene, along with dozens of wounded.

"We don't know how many there are in other hospitals," the Reuters news agency quoted the Kamal Adwan hospital's manager Hussam Abu Safieyah as saying.


At Gaza City's biggest hospital, Al Shifa, which was already barely functioning, doctors were struggling to cope with large numbers of wounded coming through the door.


Gaza City, where Hamas had its headquarters, was an early focus of the IDF's offensive against the group. Much of the fighting and bombardment has shifted further south, however, ahead of an expected Israeli ground offensive in Rafah, right on Gaza's southern border with Egypt.


Israel has been warned by the U.S. not to launch that incursion without a credible plan to evacuate the roughly 1.5 million Palestinians who've poured into Rafah from across Gaza since the war began. But with fighting between Israeli forces and Hamas militants continuing and Israel still hammering locations across Gaza with missiles and artillery, the death toll has climbed steadily.

Families destroyed as Gaza death toll reportedly tops 30,000
According to the enclave's Hamas-run Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilian and combatant casualties, as of Thursday at least 30,035 people have been killed in Gaza since the war started, and more than 70,400 others injured.


In the central city of Dier El Balah, an Israeli attack on a crowded building very nearly killed an entire extended family earlier this week — 36 people in all — according to survivors who spoke with CBS News.
Rajaa Hamad, at right, stands next to the hospital bed of her nephew, Mohammad Hamad, 9, who was the only member of his immediate family to escape from the wreckage of their home after it was hit by an Israeli airstrike in northern Gaza, Feb. 28, 2024.CBS NEWS


Mohammad Hamad, 9, was the only member of his immediate family to escape from the wreckage of their home. He keeps telling his aunt, who also survived the strike, that all he wants is to see his mother's face again.


Rajaa Hamad told CBS News that her nephew "had seen horror in that half an hour. He said it [debris] was raining down on him and he was under the rubble and was in pain, but he wanted to live, because his mother asked him to one day become a doctor."


She said the young boy was "tired mentally, and he asks for his mother every day… the Israelis took his family away from him, the entire family."
Mohammad Hamad, 9, cries in a hospital bed in Deir al-Balah, northern Gaza, Feb. 28, 2024, after being the only member of his immediate family to survive an Israeli strike that hit their home several miles further north in Neseirat.CBS NEWS


Hamad said her nephew had two uncles living outside of Gaza who want to help look after him, but she feared there was no way for her to get him out of the territory.


Amid the unrelenting violence and increasing scenes of starvation, negotiations in Qatar between Israel and Hamas over a new cease-fire and hostage release agreement continue, but there has been no breakthrough despite mounting pressure from the Biden administration for a deal.

"We have to do everything in our power," Meerav Ben Ari, an Israeli opposition politician, told CBS News. "Everything."


Ben Ari said the next week or so would be crucial in the talks. The Muslim holy month of Ramadan starts on March 10, and she said if a deal isn't in place before then, it could inflame tensions not only in Israel, Gaza and the occupied West Bank, but across the Middle East.

(02-29-2024, 02:29 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: 25000 women and children killed in Gaza ...

A massacre.

(02-29-2024, 03:38 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: From the pentagon.

(02-29-2024, 03:59 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Wonder if the exteremist in Gaza would fire on their own people to blame Israel

Quote:The Israel Defense Forces said the casualties were the result of "a violent gathering of Gazan residents" around aid trucks, during which it said dozens of people were "injured as a result of being crushed and trampled." 



An IDF official said later that after the chaos, at a nearby crossing point between north and south Gaza, Israeli forces first fired warning shots and then opened fire on civilians who rushed toward aid trucks and an accompanying IDF tank. The official said IDF forces had "fired at those who posed a threat," and stressed that the incident remained under review.

(02-29-2024, 03:59 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Wonder if the exteremist in Gaza would fire on their own people to blame Israel

(02-29-2024, 03:59 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Wonder if the exteremist in Gaza would fire on their own people to blame Israel

(03-02-2024, 03:26 PM)Dill Wrote: Wonder if Israelis would fire on hundreds of starving people mobbing food convoys, inducing a stampede,

and then claim they were really firing at another group allegedly approaching them in a "threatening" manner?

And only AFTER the stampede had begun?

(03-02-2024, 03:26 PM)Dill Wrote: Wonder if Israelis would fire on hundreds of starving people mobbing food convoys, inducing a stampede,

and then claim they were really firing at another group allegedly approaching them in a "threatening" manner?

And only AFTER the stampede had begun?

(02-18-2024, 06:38 PM)Dill Wrote: Again, it sounds like you are speaking as if the borders of the Strip are open. Or are you simply referring to Gaza City? Fleeing to Rafah from Gaza City certainly increases one's chances of survival, which are already pretty low.  So it would be stupid to stay and those who can flee Gaza City have "chosen" to do so. But they are still contained in the Gaza Strip. How do you flee that? The Egyptians will turn you back. The Israelis will likely shoot you. And now Rafah must be "cleared" as well. Where will the refugees from Gaza City staying with the refugees of Rafah go next?

The barriers which contain the population of Gaza Strip are not natural formations like a mountain range or a river too wide to swim. They are wholly human constructions, manned by humans who have, by the way, made a practice of "mowing down" Palestinians who attempt to break out.

You keep saying though that people are "choosing" to stay, like there is no force involved. Or if you recognize the force, you still appear to blame the victims, not the people applying the force, who created the barriers around Gaza and maintain them.  This is sort of like blaming a battered wife for not leaving her husband--except in this case the doors and windows are locked an boarded to prevent her leaving without permission. If she attempts to kill her husband, you are not interested in her reasons why--the history of the conflict--only that she has declared homicidal intention and acted on it.

And you argue that people always have a choice and should fight back against their oppressors, even if all they have is a pitchfork. 
That is just what Hamas thinks it is doing, defending against genocide.

(03-02-2024, 06:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: Step one:  Establish that the enemy hides among the civilians.  It's impossible to tell them apart even when in close combat.

Step two: Make is "acceptable" to kill civilians who are just "casualties" in the war.

Step three: Deny the events happened as reported because the "enemy" will always lie.  A good, Democratic nation would not!

Step four: "Review" the incident for however long you think it will take the world to forget about it.

Repeat as necessary until you realize you have to kill every man woman and child to "defeat" the enemy and you withdraw.

Oh, wait...that was Vietnam.  

Not sure it applies here.