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+---- Thread: What does a successful government look like? (/Thread-What-does-a-successful-government-look-like)
What does a successful government look like? - Belsnickel - 03-05-2016
So, I started thinking about this because of a meme in the meme thread about the success of liberal policies. When I read it and it had Europe as a failure I thought "well, we are 12th on this one quality of life index with 11 more liberal European countries ahead of us, that doesn't seem like a failure." So I started to ponder what others might consider to be a successful government and figured I would ask. I can get into more detail later on my thoughts, about to head out for a bit. But what are your thoughts? What does a successful government look like? I think it is an important discussion as we talk about policies in this upcoming election.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - BmorePat87 - 03-05-2016
I can't answer this question without the context of the society. The perfect government for the US will always be different than the perfect government for France or Russia or Japan.
We just covered domestic policy and kids ask about things like universal healthcare and why we don't have it. The best thing I can say is "the United States has always been unique compared to Europe. Where most of Europe had a monarch or some other authoritarian leader and eventually evolved into a more democratic society, the US started off by breaking free of the rule of a monarch. We have always valued the individual and ensuring as much freedom as possible over protection or a safety net."
In a general sense, I guess I would say that the perfect government is one that maintains it's sovereignty, keeps its population safe, and follows the will of its population. How it does all of that will vary based on the society and what values they hold regarding government and power.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - GMDino - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 08:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I started thinking about this because of a meme in the meme thread about the success of liberal policies. When I read it and it had Europe as a failure I thought "well, we are 12th on this one quality of life index with 11 more liberal European countries ahead of us, that doesn't seem like a failure." So I started to ponder what others might consider to be a successful government and figured I would ask. I can get into more detail later on my thoughts, about to head out for a bit. But what are your thoughts? What does a successful government look like? I think it is an important discussion as we talk about policies in this upcoming election.
I assuming it means to have the white man in charge and total control. Bombing everyone who disagrees with us.
And being "#1".
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 08:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I started thinking about this because of a meme in the meme thread about the success of liberal policies. When I read it and it had Europe as a failure I thought "well, we are 12th on this one quality of life index with 11 more liberal European countries ahead of us, that doesn't seem like a failure." So I started to ponder what others might consider to be a successful government and figured I would ask. I can get into more detail later on my thoughts, about to head out for a bit. But what are your thoughts? What does a successful government look like? I think it is an important discussion as we talk about policies in this upcoming election.
A successful government would be the one that the founders envisioned, not the large intrusive one we have today.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - BmorePat87 - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 10:42 AM)Vlad Wrote: A successful government would be the one that the founders envisioned, not the large intrusive one we have today.
The one they envisioned caused a devastating Civil War.
I do agree, though, that the bulk of what they created was designed to form a more perfect government and one that could be extremely successful. However, I don't think our government was truly successful until it began to use the tools in the Constitution to be a successful government for ALL Americans, not just a few.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 10:40 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can't answer this question without the context of the society. The perfect government for the US will always be different than the perfect government for France or Russia or Japan.
We just covered domestic policy and kids ask about things like universal healthcare and why we don't have it. The best thing I can say is "the United States has always been unique compared to Europe. Where most of Europe had a monarch or some other authoritarian leader and eventually evolved into a more democratic society, the US started off by breaking free of the rule of a monarch. We have always valued the individual and ensuring as much freedom as possible over protection or a safety net."
In a general sense, I guess I would say that the perfect government is one that maintains it's sovereignty, keeps its population safe, and follows the will of its population. How it does all of that will vary based on the society and what values they hold regarding government and power.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Are kids really taught the uniqueness of our founding? Or is telling the story of our founding viewed as American exceptionalism and to be avoided like the plague?
What inspired our Founders. As you know the founders were influenced by people such as philospher John Locke who believed the duty of that government was to protect the natural rights of the people..life, liberty, property.
You mentioned authoritarian monarchies which were prevalent in Europe. The founders wanted none of that "Im the king, do as I say" shit here....sorta like Obama.
The colonies evolving into individual states, with their own leaders (governors), legislators, laws and even their own military, and the concept of states rights.
The idea of a bunch of small countries (states) being united...and free from authoritarian rule.
The branches of the federal government...checks and balances, which nips in the bud authoritarian rule by one man or group. Obama has been able to get around that though.
All that stuff..that which makes America's founding and her Constitution the most unique and exceptional in the world. Are kids taught all that?
RE: What does a successful government look like? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:04 PM)Vlad Wrote: Are kids taught all that?
Where did you learn all that?
RE: What does a successful government look like? - BmorePat87 - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:04 PM)Vlad Wrote: I'm glad you brought that up.
Are kids really taught the uniqueness of our founding? Or is telling the story of our founding viewed as American exceptionalism and to be avoided like the plague?
In US history? I can't say as 9th grade US history begins with Reconstruction. They learn founding through Civil War in 8th grade.
Do i teach it when I go over our foundations in Government class? Yes.
Quote:As you know the founders were influenced by people such as philospher John Locke who believed the duty of that government was to protect the natural rights of the people..life, liberty, property.
You mentioned authoritarian monarchies which were prevalent in Europe. The founders wanted none of that "Im the king, do as I say"
All part of the government curriculum and all things I like to focus on. Also on Maryland's government assessment.
Quote:The colonies evolving into individual states, with their own leaders (governors), legislators, and even their own military, and the concept of states rights.
The idea of a bunch of small countries (states) being united...and free from authoritarian rule.
The concept of what a "state", "country", and "nation" really means is usually lost on those not in AP or honors, but I try to explain it anyways to my reg kids. The concept of federalism is repeatedly referenced in the class.
Quote:The branches of government...checks and balances.
We'd be doing a bad job if we didn't. Start with the constitution, introduce these concepts as principles of the Constitution, and then we spend a unit each on the branches. Obviously Legislative is the longest unit and judicial the shortest.
Quote:All that stuff..that which makes America's founding and her Constitution the most unique and exceptional in the world. Are kids taught all that?
At least here.
In case you're curious about the format of this class, here are the units:
-Principles of government
-Foundations of the US government
-Constitution
-Legislative
-Executive (after this you would teach Judicial but I don't)
-Citizen Involvement (parties, elections, lobbying, etc)
-Domestic Policy
-Foreign Policy
-Judicial Branch (I move it down here because it pairs better with law)
-Criminal and Civil Law
-Economy and Monetary Policy
(This is where we take our state assessment you need to pass to graduate)
-Financial Literacy (budgeting and personal finances)
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:20 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: In US history? I can't say as 9th grade US history begins with Reconstruction. They learn founding through Civil War in 8th grade.
Do i teach it when I go over our foundations in Government class? Yes.
All part of the government curriculum and all things I like to focus on. Also on Maryland's government assessment.
The concept of what a "state", "country", and "nation" really means is usually lost on those not in AP or honors, but I try to explain it anyways to my reg kids. The concept of federalism is repeatedly referenced in the class.
We'd be doing a bad job if we didn't. Start with the constitution, introduce these concepts as principles of the Constitution, and then we spend a unit each on the branches. Obviously Legislative is the longest unit and judicial the shortest.
At least here.
In case you're curious about the format of this class, here are the units:
-Principles of government
-Foundations of the US government
-Constitution
-Legislative
-Executive (after this you would teach Judicial but I don't)
-Citizen Involvement
-Domestic Policy
-Foreign Policy
-Judicial Branch (I move it down here because it pairs better with law)
-Criminal and Civil Law
-Economy and Monetary Policy
(This is where we take our state assessment you need to pass to graduate)
-Financial Literacy (budgeting and personal finances)
Cool...sometimes it makes you wonder.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 10:49 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The one they envisioned caused a devastating Civil War.
I do agree, though, that the bulk of what they created was designed to form a more perfect government and one that could be extremely successful. However, I don't think our government was truly successful until it began to use the tools in the Constitution to be a successful government for ALL Americans, not just a few.
Are you attributing that to the "freedom" of men to own slaves, which contradicts the words "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence,
Or does it go deeper?
RE: What does a successful government look like? - GMDino - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:29 PM)Vlad Wrote: Are you attributing that to the "freedom" of men to own slaves, which contradicts the words "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence,
Or does it go deeper?
Which men do you think they referred to?
RE: What does a successful government look like? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 08:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I started thinking about this because of a meme in the meme thread about the success of liberal policies. When I read it and it had Europe as a failure I thought "well, we are 12th on this one quality of life index with 11 more liberal European countries ahead of us, that doesn't seem like a failure." So I started to ponder what others might consider to be a successful government and figured I would ask. I can get into more detail later on my thoughts, about to head out for a bit. But what are your thoughts? What does a successful government look like? I think it is an important discussion as we talk about policies in this upcoming election.
At this point, I would like to see our politicians work together for the good of the citizens they represent instead of a constant cycle of partisan politics whose goal is re-election, gaing a majority in both houses of Congress, and the Oval Office. I like our government in principle, but it's the dickheads running it that are a major problem. I don't think any reasonable person would want to be a politician in this political environment. I think one has to be touched in the head to want the job. Look at the current crop of Presidential candidates. They're worse than the cast of Jersey Shore. It's not just the politicians fault because we have become a populace that consumes Jersey Shore. The same people who are pissed off for participation awards and the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality are the same ones that get pissed off if you don't accept American exceptionalism without evidence. But, I've been to countries which are so much worse.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:16 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Where did you learn all that?
Not from a liberal. I assure you that.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:23 PM)Vlad Wrote: Cool...sometimes it makes you wonder.
You have to work at school. You get out of it what you put into it. Kinda like the lead a horse to water idiom. I had an old school history teacher from Virginia (who would never let you forget he was from Virginia) who would tell students who had fallen asleep with their head resting on their textbook, "You don't absorb it through osmosis."
RE: What does a successful government look like? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:34 PM)Vlad Wrote: Not from a liberal. I assure you that.
You avoided answering the question. Where did you learn all that?
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: Which men do you think they referred to?
You're trying to pick a fight where there is none.
Men, people, citizens, whatever you want to call them, who held other men, people, in bondage contradicts or goes against the belief expressed in the Decl. of Indep. that all men are created equal.
Was that better?
It's safe to assume Pat knew what I was talking about. I require more clarity on why he thinks the establishment of a perfect government led to the Civil War.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - BmorePat87 - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:29 PM)Vlad Wrote: Are you attributing that to the "freedom" of men to own slaves, which contradicts the words "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence,
Or does it go deeper?
No, I'm referring more to the compromises made during the Constitutional Convention to appease the slave states and allow slavery to continue on unaddressed and to allow representation for humans considered property, giving these states far more power than they deserved to have, which further allowed them to stave off any attempts to legitimately address the issue.
The contradictions between the message of the Declaration of Independence and who was initially treated equally in are government is a whole different discussion. Like I said, though, the tools were there to make sure our government was working towards success, and we should be proud of the government we have, what we have done, and how we have evolved since being colonies.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - Vlad - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You avoided answering the question. Where did you learn all that?
I think I'll just keep you in suspense for a while.
RE: What does a successful government look like? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:53 PM)Vlad Wrote: I think I'll just keep you in suspense for a while.
Did you learn it in school?
RE: What does a successful government look like? - CageTheBengal - 03-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 12:34 PM)Vlad Wrote: Not from a liberal. I assure you that.
Whoever taught you forgot to teach you how to read.
Where did you learn that from?