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+---- Thread: PnR Decorum and suspensions (/Thread-PnR-Decorum-and-suspensions)
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - GMDino - 07-15-2017
(07-15-2017, 07:36 PM)Benton Wrote: We've discussed this amongst ourselves and I see both sides. I think people have a right to know who and why action was taken against them. On the other hand, I don't want a moderator hesitating to do what they feel right for fear of fallout. I don't care too much about my popularity but I understand how an individual might be afraid to take action due to a friendship.
I encourage anyone with a concern to contact me. Even if I didn't suspend/reprimand them, I'll find out what the reasoning was and take it from there.
The last time I got the pink slip I was told exactly why...I disagreed with the reasoning, but I knew exactly which post and why it happened because I was told. I thought that was at least fair and gave me what to avoid.
At least one other time I was told exactly why also. Doesn't matter to me who did it or if it was reported or just noticed.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - StLucieBengal - 07-16-2017
(07-15-2017, 07:36 PM)Benton Wrote: We've discussed this amongst ourselves and I see both sides. I think people have a right to know who and why action was taken against them. On the other hand, I don't want a moderator hesitating to do what they feel right for fear of fallout. I don't care too much about my popularity but I understand how an individual might be afraid to take action due to a friendship.
I encourage anyone with a concern to contact me. Even if I didn't suspend/reprimand them, I'll find out what the reasoning was and take it from there.
As someone who is pretty familiar with the suspension process.
You have always been forthright and that's something you can respect. If a mod is afraid of putting their name on it then he question is should they be moderating? Your job sucks and by no means it's a popularity contest . A moderator being afraid of personal ramifications seems like someone who shouldn't be moderating. I know when I have been moderators by you, zona, or holic because I get a courtesy message from you guys. These stealth suspensions/bans are crazy stuff.
I don't understand the hesitancy to stand behind your actions when it's as irrelevant as a message board. This affects no ones real life.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - StLucieBengal - 07-16-2017
(07-15-2017, 11:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: The last time I got the pink slip I was told exactly why...I disagreed with the reasoning, but I knew exactly which post and why it happened because I was told. I thought that was at least fair and gave me what to avoid.
At least one other time I was told exactly why also. Doesn't matter to me who did it or if it was reported or just noticed.
The issue is when a mod stealth suspends or bans . The other mods can't see why... that is unfortunate because we do not know who to reach out to correct the issue.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 12:24 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The issue is when a mod stealth suspends or bans . The other mods can't see why... that is unfortunate because we do not know who to reach out to correct the issue.
(07-14-2017, 12:29 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: What is allowed and not allowed word wise is quite fluid. It would be nice if these would be added to the filter instead of just random suspensions for words that no one knows is not permitted.
If I typed a list of the words I have been suspended or banned for it would be eye opening as most wouldn't even expect pronouns to be on that list.
I won't because I got a month for posting that one time.
A stealth banning for a random word no one knows isn't permitted?
Wow! Dean Wormer has gone way beyond double secret probation.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - StLucieBengal - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 12:37 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: A stealth banning for a random word no one knows isn't permitted?
Wow! Dean Wormer has gone way beyond double secret probation.
You and I have both been suspended/banned for going at one another and for our own posts. Either way it's beneficial to know why we wer suspended . How else would we know and be able to sort it out?
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 02:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You and I have both been suspended/banned for going at one another and for our own posts. Either way it's beneficial to know why we wer suspended . How else would we know and be able to sort it out?
Yeah, how else would we know why we've been suspended/banned for going at one another or for our own posts. It's a god damn mystery, these stealth bannings for random words no one knows aren't permitted.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Bengalzona - 07-16-2017
(07-15-2017, 08:48 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm open to suggestions on how to address someone playing the victim card without addressing the person playing the victim card.
Is there a need to address another member playing the victim card?
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - xxlt - 07-16-2017
(07-15-2017, 08:48 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm open to suggestions on how to address someone playing the victim card without addressing the person playing the victim card.
Every time I have been suspended it was my fault. It was because I wrote something that violated the code of conduct. Furthermore, I knew it. It wasn't because an unfortunate choice of pronouns without any intent to insult someone else. It wasn't because a cabal of snowflakes reported my posts. It wasn't because of overly subjective analysis of my words by liberal moderators. The number of people who report my posts is irrelevant. Because the moderators aren't going to suspend me because my posts are reported or by the number of people reporting my posts. The moderators will suspend me for breaking the rules. Suggesting otherwise is a disservice to the moderators and an insult to their integrity.
I can't speak for all here, but personally I know the Denny abused his position as a moderator at Bengals.com. That's one reason I believe the moderation should be transparent. Plus our legal system is transparent, for the most part. Even Article 15s in the military are posted publicly so people know what isn't tolerated, how punishment is carried out, and what not to do themselves, etc. Plus the members here can learn to trust in the "subjective" judgment of moderators when it comes to pronoun usage. Or we could ask for a change in moderation if it seems someone's judgement is clouded. It protects us from moderators like Denny and it protects moderators from false accusations.
I agree with your assessment there were abuses by moderators at the mother ship. I don't think there are any by moderators here. And, I want to be perfectly clear, by encouraging an assessment of who complains and about what I in no way meant to insult the integrity of our moderators. Quite the contrary, I have stated and will state again, (as breech described above) that when they suspend someone it is for violations of the COC and justified.
What I thought I was hearing was not moderators saying we have a difficult time keeping up with violations of the COC, but rather we have a difficult time keeping up with complaints about our moderation and about other members being "bad" or "mean." If that is the situation, and it seemed to be described that way, then the issue isn't the COC, it isn't the moderators, and it isn't the deplorable behavior of members, it is the people who flood the moderators with complaints.
Hypothetical parallel: our moderators work at CBS and field complaints everyday about The Big Bang Theory. It is the number one show on TV. So, they've created a success, but some people hate Jim Parsons, some hate Kaley Cuoco, some people hate the apartments they shoot scenes in, etc. If you were the people getting complaints (our moderators) would you change the show, pull it off the air (shut down the forum), or tell the nice folks complaining to watch something else?
Or, obviously they could do none of the above and just stay the course. But that seems unlikely - it seems we are at some sort of crisis point and I am curious about why that is. That's why I invited adopting a different perspective.
I have to say I am not a big fan of letting markets regulate themselves, but it seems like on the MB it kind of works. I've started or seen others start threads I thought would be red hot only to see them fizzle, but likewise started or seen started threads I thought would appeal to a very small number of people only to see them go on and on like the energizer bunny. So a lot of it sorts itself out and when the COC gets violated the mods do what is necessary and appropriate and they don't, imo, need "helpers."
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - xxlt - 07-16-2017
(07-15-2017, 09:31 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I enjoy the back and forth that goes on but I tend to stop visiting threads when topics are changed that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread and it always turns against Christianity for some strange reason. I may be biased though and see only attacks on Christianity.
How when someone says they are against the death penalty and then another will be snarky and inject how Jesus talks to them and he says blah blah blah.
Some people have a real hatred for Christianity on this forum and will always make snarky comments about it no matter what the topic is.
I say if you can't stay on topic then don't post.
Interesting. I have known people my whole life who hate Christianity, and who love it. Some of my closest friends go to church every week, and some wouldn't be caught dead in a church. Most on both sides know I am an agnostic, not that it really matters. My point is I have heard hateful and intolerant rhetoric come from both sides, including some friends. But honestly, I'm lucky that most of my friends have become more open minded whether sitting on a park bench or in a pew on Sunday morning.
As far as here though, maybe I am lucky and just hitting the right threads but the idea that people are viciously attacking Christianity on this MB seems way off base. I've seen far more attacks on Islam (which I just ignore because they aren't worth acknowledging) and I have to say if I saw attacks on Christianity I would do the same thing (some things are just beneath a response). Seriously, if Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and judging me right this second, I am pretty confident I am not losing points for not getting into a flame war on the internet defending Christians against mean people saying nasty things about it. Pretty sure the score card involves a lot more of whenever I did something for the least among us then I was gaining points with JC.
By that standard, I am not perfect, but I like how I would stack up against anyone who is not a saint or millionaire philanthropist. I've fed the hungry, comforted the sick, clothed the naked, heck I've even preached the gospel. Again, not that it really matters but since I have been called a Christianity hater right here on these boards let me say again, I've read most of the bible and preached and taught in numerous churches and informal church settings. I know and love many wonderful Christian men and women, but also know many wonderful people from other faiths and many wonderful atheists and agnostics. For me Christianity came up empty for a lot of reasons, including I don't like the image of Jesus keeping score and too often I would see Christian leaders (not church goers but leadership) talking a good game but deeply hurting many more people than they helped.
I've never been afraid to listen to Christian teaching, and to question it. It seems questioning is much more welcome in some traditions like Judaism and the UU church and perhaps this is why some Christians perceive me as "hateful" as opposed to "thoughtful." But my Jewish friends will gladly entertain my questions and challenge me with questions of their own. Same goes for Unitarian Universalist friends.
So, since Nebuchadnezzar was honest enough to say maybe he is biased I commend that honesty and respectfully suggest that sometimes we do see bad intent when there is none. Perhaps this has been the case with "attacks on Christianity."
Questions about one's faith may not be intended as attacks, and even if they are, if the attacks are valid then the goal of the Christian is (I think) to work through the legitimate problem with one's faith that the attack exposed and emerge a better person whether your faith is strengthened of weakened by the experience. Some of my best teachers always said something I think is true - conversion is not a moment (I got saved on May 4th and now my religious journey is done) but rather a process (my whole life I will be reflecting on, refining, and growing my relationship with my faith community and my God). Sometimes there are challenges and setbacks, sometimes there are doubts, but faith should be dynamic not static according to these teachers who dedicated their lives to Christianity and the teaching of it. In this light, honest pointed questions and even "attacks" are a conversion opportunity.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - xxlt - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 06:41 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Is there a need to address another member playing the victim card?
That was tongue in cheek, right?
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Bengalholic - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 12:24 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The issue is when a mod stealth suspends or bans . The other mods can't see why... that is unfortunate because we do not know who to reach out to correct the issue.
I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions on, but there are no 'stealth' actions taking place with the moderation of this forum. In fact, when a suspension, banning or restriction occurs...the reason for the action is logged for every member of the staff to see, as well as posted in a disciplinary thread.
Also, just a couple of general points concerning moderation, which have been brought up in recent posts:
When a member receives a disciplinary action, the specifics of that action will not be discussed with anyone other than that individual. If the individual is suspended or banned, they can contact myself or another staff member by email (or by PM if only Restricted) to discuss the situation or seek further clarification.
When an action is taken by the staff, with the exception of blatant violations, it is generally the case that warnings have been given or discussion has taken place via PM beforehand. The staff talks about these things on a daily basis, and in the case of long term suspension or permanent bans...a lot of thought and discussion goes into it, resulting in a consensus. There have been many times when this staff has went beyond what is required of them, in an effort to work with members to find solutions or avoid disciplinary actions.
As to the subjectivity of enforcing the CoC, I'll try to provide some clarification there as well. The CoC sets the guidelines for what is expected of, and not allowed, by members of this site. Within that framework, there is a need for a certain amount of subjectivity when it comes to disciplinary actions. Many things factor into that: amount of prior warnings, previous disciplinary actions, degree of the violation, etc. We will also look at things like intent and context - using our best judgement - to come to a final determination.
I'm very proud of the staff, and feel they have done an outstanding job for the last 2+ years. Moderating is a thankless job at times, and one in which you're never going make everyone happy. The goal of this staff has always been to be as fair-minded as possible - with the rules, the moderation, disciplinary actions and dealing with individual members.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - TheLeonardLeap - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 02:25 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm very proud of the staff, and feel they have done an outstanding job for the last 2+ years. Moderating is a thankless job at times, and one in which you're never going make everyone happy. The goal of this staff always been to be as fair-minded as possible - with the rules, the moderation, disciplinary actions and dealing with individual members.
Everyone knows that's why you need to find the balance where you don't get yourself banned, but are JUST offensive enough that nobody ever wants you to be a mod for anything.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Dill - 07-16-2017
(07-16-2017, 02:25 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: As to the subjectivity of enforcing the CoC, I'll try to provide some clarification there as well. The CoC sets the guidelines for what is expected of, and not allowed, by members of this site. Within that framework, there is a need for a certain amount of subjectivity when it comes to disciplinary actions. Many things factor into that: amount of prior warnings, previous disciplinary actions, degree of the violation, etc. We will also look at things like intent and context - using our best judgement - to come to a final determination.
I'm very proud of the staff, and feel they have done an outstanding job for the last 2+ years. Moderating is a thankless job at times, and one in which you're never going make everyone happy. The goal of this staff has always been to be as fair-minded as possible - with the rules, the moderation, disciplinary actions and dealing with individual members.
That's how it looks to me.
And the "subjective" element, balancing past behavior with present offenses, is the preferable alternative to a zero tolerance policy, which would leave many feeling unfairly punished.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - treee - 07-17-2017
I think what would really help is to remember what the point of the subforum even is.
It is not to be an echo chamber, where only affirmation exists.
It is not to be a battle ground, where we seek to debase those who disagree with us.
It is an opportunity to share with each other our viewpoints, experiences, and knowledge. I think every poster here has the ability to add value to a conversation. It should be our ideal and shared goal to be better off from our conversations. If we had this perspective, then threads like these wouldn't be necessary.
Or we could all just try to be inflammatory as possible and see how far we can push the integrity of the CoC for the fun of it. That's always an option.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - GMDino - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 05:09 AM)treee Wrote: I think what would really help is to remember what the point of the subforum even is.
It is not to be an echo chamber, where only affirmation exists.
It is not to be a battle ground, where we seek to debase those who disagree with us.
It is an opportunity to share with each other our viewpoints, experiences, and knowledge. I think every poster here has the ability to add value to a conversation. It should be our ideal and shared goal to be better off from our conversations. If we had this perspective, then threads like these wouldn't be necessary.
Or we could all just try to be inflammatory as possible and see how far we can push the integrity of the CoC for the fun of it. That's always an option.
I know I've fallen victim to acting like that. Trying to be better about how I reply to posts whether I feel they were insulting me or not.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Bengalzona - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 05:09 AM)treee Wrote: I think what would really help is to remember what the point of the subforum even is.
It is not to be an echo chamber, where only affirmation exists.
It is not to be a battle ground, where we seek to debase those who disagree with us.
It is an opportunity to share with each other our viewpoints, experiences, and knowledge. I think every poster here has the ability to add value to a conversation. It should be our ideal and shared goal to be better off from our conversations. If we had this perspective, then threads like these wouldn't be necessary.
Or we could all just try to be inflammatory as possible and see how far we can push the integrity of the CoC for the fun of it. That's always an option.
Well said.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Belsnickel - 07-17-2017
My wife got into an argument on Facebook, yesterday. She isn't an internet warrior and she wears her emotions on her sleeve and so it really got to her when people started getting inflammatory. I gave her some advice that I utilize here and it is a very helpful thing: walk away. She was tempted to stoop to their level, but she isn't that type of person. I try not to be, but sometimes succumb. The main thing, though, is that if someone says something that gets your hackles up it is often best to just stop looking at the thread.
I do it all the time. I get frustrated with certain posters that continually twist words or logic and you can tell by their responses that they are reading what they want to read from your post. When I feel myself get to the point that I don't know if I can respond without calling them a derogatory name, I stop posting in the thread for a while. If the thread continues on I may check it in a day or two and respond to other people, but I will often ignore the post that go me to that point. We spend so much time on here with the mentality that we must win the argument that this can be a hard thing to do. Most of us in here have that "must have the last word" mentality whether we would like to admit it or not. Sometimes, though, it is best to step back from that.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Benton - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 05:09 AM)treee Wrote: I think what would really help is to remember what the point of the subforum even is.
It is not to be an echo chamber, where only affirmation exists.
It is not to be a battle ground, where we seek to debase those who disagree with us.
It is an opportunity to share with each other our viewpoints, experiences, and knowledge. I think every poster here has the ability to add value to a conversation. It should be our ideal and shared goal to be better off from our conversations. If we had this perspective, then threads like these wouldn't be necessary.
Or we could all just try to be inflammatory as possible and see how far we can push the integrity of the CoC for the fun of it. That's always an option.
(07-17-2017, 12:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: My wife got into an argument on Facebook, yesterday. She isn't an internet warrior and she wears her emotions on her sleeve and so it really got to her when people started getting inflammatory. I gave her some advice that I utilize here and it is a very helpful thing: walk away. She was tempted to stoop to their level, but she isn't that type of person. I try not to be, but sometimes succumb. The main thing, though, is that if someone says something that gets your hackles up it is often best to just stop looking at the thread.
I do it all the time. I get frustrated with certain posters that continually twist words or logic and you can tell by their responses that they are reading what they want to read from your post. When I feel myself get to the point that I don't know if I can respond without calling them a derogatory name, I stop posting in the thread for a while. If the thread continues on I may check it in a day or two and respond to other people, but I will often ignore the post that go me to that point. We spend so much time on here with the mentality that we must win the argument that this can be a hard thing to do. Most of us in here have that "must have the last word" mentality whether we would like to admit it or not. Sometimes, though, it is best to step back from that.
Kudos for both of you. Sound advice and outlook.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - michaelsean - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 01:37 PM)Benton Wrote: Kudos for both of you. Sound advice and outlook.
I do the same thing, I just don't feel the need to brag about it.
RE: PnR Decorum and suspensions - Belsnickel - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 01:41 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I do the same thing, I just don't feel the need to brag about it.
Problem is that in saying this, now people know that if I don't respond to a post directed at me it is often because I am thinking they are being stupid and I'm tired of dealing with them.
