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+--- Thread: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal (/Thread-Gruden-Newton-a-nixed-trade-How-Andy-became-a-Bengal)
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RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - Shake n Blake - 08-03-2016
JimO- "So if that’s the case, you’re talking about giving up quite a few picks to do that to get back into the first round. Now say what you want about the rest of that draft, but you’re talking about really decimating the picks a 4-12 team needed to rebuild."
The closest (recent) trade I can think of is the Broncos trading up for Paxton Lynch. They moved up 5 spots (from 31 to 26) and gave up a 3rd round pick. The Bengals would've been moving up about the same amount of spots, but they were going for the 32nd pick at best. So I don't think they would've had to give up a ton of picks to get there. Most likely, a 4th could've gotten it done.
Also, even though the Bengals were 4-12, they were a year removed from sweeping and winning the division. They weren't devoid of talent.
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - Stewy - 08-03-2016
Those are great reads! Thank you Jim!
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - Essex Johnson - 08-03-2016
(08-03-2016, 12:42 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: We are talking about a franchise that did not have a quarterback at the time. Knowing that Cam would be gone, the coaches said "we want Dalton". That means that if you have to give up some draft picks to get him, then you do just that. You get your quarterback.
And for anyone praising Mike Brown's "instincts"? To quote a famous Bengal, "child please".
second guess all you want, bottom line, they got their QB, lost no draft picks and continued to build within. Hats off to "instincts"
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - Essex Johnson - 08-03-2016
(08-03-2016, 01:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: JimO- "So if that’s the case, you’re talking about giving up quite a few picks to do that to get back into the first round. Now say what you want about the rest of that draft, but you’re talking about really decimating the picks a 4-12 team needed to rebuild."
The closest (recent) trade I can think of is the Broncos trading up for Paxton Lynch. They moved up 5 spots (from 31 to 26) and gave up a 3rd round pick. The Bengals would've been moving up about the same amount of spots, but they were going for the 32nd pick at best. So I don't think they would've had to give up a ton of picks to get there. Most likely, a 4th could've gotten it done.
Also, even though the Bengals were 4-12, they were a year removed from sweeping and winning the division. They weren't devoid of talent.
No team is totally devoid of talent even if they had a losing record,, the Bengals cleaned some house as much because of attitude over talent so i can understand wanting to stock up in draft picks...
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - OrlandoBengal - 08-03-2016
(08-03-2016, 01:43 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: second guess all you want, bottom line, they got their QB, lost no draft picks and continued to build within. Hats off to "instincts"
How well have Mike Brown's football "instincts" worked over the course of his career? By most accounts, Mike actually wanted Kaepernick, so that should tell you all you need to know about his instincts. Yes, they got the quarterback that Marvin and Gruden wanted, but that still does not mean it wasn't a bone headed move.
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - Bengalholic - 08-03-2016
(08-03-2016, 12:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd normally understand gambling that a player would fall. In fact, I'd encourage it. We're talking about a potential franchise QB though... for a team that had no QB. The risk was too big. I'm honestly a little surprised that so many would side with Mike Brown over our coaches, who clearly thought trading up was the right move. I'd say Marv has the far better track record with personnel decisions.
As for how the non-trade worked out, like I said, we got lucky that Dalton was still there. That doesn't automatically mean that standing put was a smart move. Marv and Jay had the guy they wanted and had the common sense to realize that ensuring that they'd land their coveted QB was worth offering up say.. a 4th-5th round pick. And fwiw, if the Bengals had to do it all over, I'd give up Clint Boling without blinking to ensure that we wind up with Dalton. Guards are easily replaceable. QBs are not.
Like I said above, waiting on a WR is one thing. Waiting on a QB that you're coaches feel could be the future of the franchise (or at least stabilize the position)? When you don't have a QB? For the sake of a late round pick? Dumb. Marv (the smarter personnel guy) wanted to trade up. I feel good siding with him on that one. It's a risk/reward thing. The risk of losing Andy Dalton wasn't worth the reward of getting say... Clint Boling (the best player - by far - that came after Dalton in that draft).
By the same token, you could say that Seattle (Carroll and Schneider) was also gambling big time by not taking Dalton, when they were equally as desperate for a QB. They decided to go with Carpenter instead. They were able to end up with Wilson the following year, who helped lead them to two Super Bowls. Perhaps it was very lucky that it ended up working out that way, but it did end up working out.
Waiting/hoping for Dalton to fall to us, instead of trading up, may not have seemed like the smartest play (and I would agree), but it worked out. They still got their QB after all was said and done.
At the end of the day, that's really all that matters. You aren't judged on your ability to make a trade, you are judged on whether the moves/picks you made, or didn't make, worked out for your team. Sometimes it's shrewd maneuvering, sometimes it's being patient, sometimes rolling the dice, and yes...sometimes just getting lucky.
Just my two cents anyway.
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - grampahol - 08-05-2016
The thing about trading up to get Dalton is we're not told what other teams may have wanted in return and as O pointed out (damned...lost train of thought) nobody knew that Dalton would be a franchise QB at the time. (sorry O..I had to ad lib that..) If it were certain he would turn out so well we probably wouldn't have AJ instead picking Andy at #4 in the first round because at the time a QB was far more important . Remember, CP had already decided he wasn't coming back.
So instead of Andy at #4 and some unknown WR we got AJ at #4 and AD later.. Not a bad deal..
You don't get to be a retroactive genius 4 or 5 years after the fact..
I'm certain that until this past season there were many of you bashing the team for even drafting Dalton at all and plenty of you were upset they didn't get Kap instead. In fact many here were branded as 'homers' just for wanting to stick with Dalton.
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - fredtoast - 08-05-2016
(08-03-2016, 12:42 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: We are talking about a franchise that did not have a quarterback at the time. Knowing that Cam would be gone, the coaches said "we want Dalton". That means that if you have to give up some draft picks to get him, then you do just that. You get your quarterback.
But they did not have to give up any picks to get him.
It is amazing that even when the Bengals do the right thing the "experts" here call them dumb. I guarantee that if we had given up picks to move up the same "experts" here would be saying the Bengals were dumb to do it because they could have gotten dalton without giving up any picks.
RE: Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 08-05-2016
Mike Kenny Rogersed that shit. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.