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+---- Thread: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? (/Thread-Jesus-was-a-Socialist-LOLWUT)
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Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - THE Bigzoman - 10-27-2016
Saw this on social media and other forums I frequent don't allow discussions on religion, so here I am.
I'll make it short and sweet. The claim I heard was that Jesus was a socialist.
Now, I hope all religion dies in a fire someday, but I know my history and economics enough to where I found this claim to be lolworhty.
Now, there are some smart individuals on this site (BMorePat, Bellsnickel, and others whom i'm forgetting), so tell me if my initial reaction is right or wrong here.
Quote:SOCIALISM. NOUN. Socialism is a social and economic system characterized by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.
With definition in mind, how exactly was Jesus a socialist? Are people confusing his morality and desire to give to the needy with socialism? Because both of these can be true about someone and they can still not be a socialist. In other words, you can demonize the pursuit of wealth and give to the needy while not believing that the means of production should be given to the state.
Given that socialism was a response to the industrial revolution--events that occurred long after Jesus died--how in the world can Jesus believe in concepts that didn't even exist yet?
Thoughts? Am I right or am I full of shit?
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - Benton - 10-27-2016
Jesus advocated voluntarily giving up your stuff for the common good.
socialists advocate the government redistributing your stuff for the common good.
one is voluntary if you want to be included, the other is mandatory whether you want to be included or not.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - treee - 10-27-2016
(10-27-2016, 09:46 PM)Benton Wrote: Jesus advocated voluntarily giving up your stuff for the common good.
socialists advocate the government redistributing your stuff for the common good.
one is voluntary if you want to be included, the other is mandatory whether you want to be included or not.
Jesus' tenants could potentially coincide with any government, institution, or situation.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - xxlt - 10-27-2016
(10-27-2016, 10:26 PM)treee Wrote: Jesus' tenants can coincide with any government, institution, or situation.
Kindly elaborate.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - treee - 10-27-2016
(10-27-2016, 10:28 PM)xxlt Wrote: Kindly elaborate.I mean that he was an advocate for decency, humility, and kindness. If anything has those characteristics then you could pretty safely say that he would be a fan of it.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - fredtoast - 10-27-2016
(10-27-2016, 09:46 PM)Benton Wrote: Jesus advocated voluntarily giving up your stuff for the common good.
socialists advocate the government redistributing your stuff for the common good.
one is voluntary if you want to be included, the other is mandatory whether you want to be included or not.
So Jesus supported Socialism.
Given the choice between a capitalist society and a socialist society Jesus would have gone socialist.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - Benton - 10-27-2016
(10-27-2016, 10:26 PM)treee Wrote: Jesus' tenants can coincide with any government, institution, or situation.not entirely disagreeing, but I would say his ideas apply to how people treat other people. Forms of government dont always advocate for the positive treatment of others. Socialism can be positive or negative, it's all up to the people implementing it.
and before anyone says it, no, Christianity can't be used for evil as equally as good. People do bad thing in it's name, but in doing so they're doing the opposite of what he taught. If you do bad things in the name of socialism, its just bad things in the name of socialism.
(10-27-2016, 11:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So Jesus supported Socialism.I would say he wouldn't support any form of government. But that's just my opinion.
Given the choice between a capitalist society and a socialist society Jesus would have gone socialist.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - treee - 10-27-2016
(10-27-2016, 11:35 PM)Benton Wrote: not entirely disagreeing, but I would say his ideas apply to how people treat other people. Forms of government dont always advocate for the positive treatment of others. Socialism can be positive or negative, it's all up to the people implementing it.Yea should have said could, not can. Nice catch.
and before anyone says it, no, Christianity can't be used for evil as equally as good. People do bad thing in it's name, but in doing so they're doing the opposite of what he taught. If you do bad things in the name of socialism, its just bad things in the name of socialism.
I would say he wouldn't support any form of government. But that's just my opinion.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - THE Bigzoman - 10-28-2016
(10-27-2016, 11:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So Jesus supported Socialism.
Given the choice between a capitalist society and a socialist society Jesus would have gone socialist.
And you're basing this on what, his advocacy for charitable giving? Again, advocacy for giving doesn't equate to advocacy for state involvement in the economy.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - GMDino - 10-28-2016
(10-28-2016, 02:32 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: And you're basing this on what, his advocacy for charitable giving? Again, advocacy for giving doesn't equate to advocacy for state involvement in the economy.
Maybe when he told his apostles to sell all they had and go out and rely on the giving of others?
I think it's silly to apply our modern concepts of these things on characters from the past though.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - xxlt - 10-28-2016
(10-27-2016, 10:30 PM)treee Wrote: I mean that he was an advocate for decency, humility, and kindness. If anything has those characteristics then you could pretty safely say that he would be a fan of it.
So anyone can claim the Jesus endorsement for anything if it has any redeeming dimension. (And, they pretty much do, come to think of it.) Thanks for clarifying that.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - treee - 10-28-2016
(10-28-2016, 09:44 AM)xxlt Wrote: So anyone can claim the Jesus endorsement for anything if it has any redeeming dimension. (And, they pretty much do, come to think of it.) Thanks for clarifying that.Yea pretty much imo. No problem.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - fredtoast - 10-28-2016
(10-28-2016, 02:32 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: And you're basing this on what, his advocacy for charitable giving? Again, advocacy for giving doesn't equate to advocacy for state involvement in the economy.
I am basing it on the fact that everything Jesus said disavows the accumulation of wealth. All he talked about was sharing everything with the poor.
Where does Jesus say "It is okay for the government to violate my teachings"? Where does he say "I want society to follow these rules, but I want the governments who control society to do the exact opposite."?
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - THE Bigzoman - 10-29-2016
(10-28-2016, 10:40 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am basing it on the fact that everything Jesus said disavows the accumulation of wealth. All he talked about was sharing everything with the poor.
Where does Jesus say "It is okay for the government to violate my teachings"? Where does he say "I want society to follow these rules, but I want the governments who control society to do the exact opposite."?
He doesn't say that anywhere. But that's not necessary for my point. You keep harping on this idea that if someone advocates for something at an individual level, then it must mean that they'd also advocate for it as policy. It's a big stretch because there's a difference between voluntary giving and involuntary economic policy. It's a false equlivancy.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - Nately120 - 10-29-2016
Jesus wants us to bomb the shit out of our enemies. That whole LOVE THY ENEMY bs was clearly mistranslated.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - GMDino - 10-29-2016
(10-29-2016, 12:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Jesus wants us to bomb the shit out of our enemies. That whole LOVE THY ENEMY bs was clearly mistranslated.
Over in the video I posted where one man tried to talk to a a line full of Trump supporters at one point the conversation turned to "turning the other cheek" and the Trump guy says incredulously (paraphrasing) "how many times do I have to do that? Sooner or later you run out of cheeks!"
Good Christians...all of them.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - Belsnickel - 10-29-2016
(10-27-2016, 11:35 PM)Benton Wrote: I would say he wouldn't support any form of government. But that's just my opinion.
Honestly, he would probably have been a fan of pure communism. Which, if some people reading this don't realize, does not have a government in its theoretical form.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - THE Bigzoman - 10-29-2016
(10-29-2016, 03:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, he would probably have been a fan of pure communism. Which, if some people reading this don't realize, does not have a government in its theoretical form.
It's almost as metaphysical as God itself.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - JustWinBaby - 10-29-2016
Jesus was a Democratic Socialist, just like Bernie.
Although I'm not sure Jesus would be onboard with the current level of entitlements - just basic needs.
Another difference is the Church only wanted 10% of your money - the govt wants much, much more.
RE: Jesus was a Socialist--LOLWUT? - Dill - 10-29-2016
(10-29-2016, 03:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, he would probably have been a fan of pure communism. Which, if some people reading this don't realize, does not have a government in its theoretical form.
I would say, in its "realized" form.
The state emerges to manage class conflict. When class conflict ends, the state "withers away."
If you define Communism as a form of Socialism (not everyone does), then it would be a form of
socialism in which the means of production were collectively owned, but not through the medium of the state.