Coronavirus Information...who do you trust?

[GMDino]

The former guy is still angry and still (mostly) lying.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/29/trump-fauci-birx-cnn-documentary-478422

Quote:Trump lashes out at Fauci and Birx after CNN documentary
The former president released a fact-challenged statement criticizing the former advisers after they criticized his administration’s pandemic response.

By BENJAMIN DIN
03/29/2021 07:53 PM EDT
Updated: 03/29/2021 08:07 PM EDT

Former President Donald Trump on Monday attacked Anthony Fauci and Deborah Birx, his administration’s top coronavirus advisers, in a highly personal — and at times inaccurate — statement released after the two criticized the administration for its response to the pandemic.

“Based on their interviews, I felt it was time to speak up about Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx, two self-promoters trying to reinvent history to cover for their bad instincts and faulty recommendations, which I fortunately almost always overturned,” Trump said. “They had bad policy decisions that would have left our country open to China and others, closed to reopening our economy, and years away from an approved vaccine — putting millions of lives at risk.”

Trump’s statement amounted to a point-by-point rebuttal of comments from Fauci and Birx in a CNN documentary that aired Sunday, which featured former Trump health officials, some of whom were critical of the former president.



Fauci said the decision “to go all out and develop a vaccine” was “the best decision that I’ve ever made with regard to an intervention as director of the institute,” referring to his role at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. The agency’s vaccine research center helped develop a key component of ultimately successful shots from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech.

But Fauci’s characterization drew Trump’s ire. In his statement on Monday, the ex-president called the vaccines authorized for emergency use “American vaccines,” even though the first vaccine to be authorized in the U.S. by the Food and Drug Administration was developed by the Turkish immigrants who founded BioNTech in Germany, and later collaborated with Pfizer to bring it to market. Pfizer, which manufactures the vaccine, did not receive development money from the government.

“Dr. Fauci was incapable of pressing the FDA to move it through faster. I was the one to get it done, and even the fake news media knows and reports this,” Trump said, even though Fauci, in his capacity as NIAID director, did not have the authority to pressure the FDA to make such decisions.

Fauci also told CNN that Trump’s social media use ran counter to what the administration’s response should have been. Birx also criticized the inconsistent messaging from the federal government as “fault number one.”

“The thing that hit me like a punch to the chest was then all of a sudden he got up and says, ‘Liberate Virginia, liberate Michigan,’ and I said to myself, ‘Oh my goodness, what is going on here?’” Fauci told CNN, referring to a series of Trump tweets. “It shocked me because it was such a jolt to what we were trying to do.”

In his statement, Trump labeled Fauci as “the king of ‘flip-flops’ and moving the goalposts to make himself look as good as possible,” while adding that he ignored the recommendations of both Fauci and Birx. Because the coronavirus was unknown to the world before late 2019, scientists and health officials fighting the pandemic frequently revised their advice as they have learned more about the virus and the disease it causes. And one official who worked inside the Trump White House said the former president's criticisms were off the mark.

“Bit of revisionist history from the former president. We all had our issues with Fauci and his media marathons but very few people — including President Trump — had anything negative to say about Dr. Birx,” said the former White House official.

Birx told CNN that the Trump administration could have done more to prevent hundreds of thousands of Covid-19 deaths in the U.S. So far, nearly 550,000 Americans have died from the coronavirus.

“I look at it this way — the first time, we have an excuse. There were about 100,000 deaths that came from that original surge,” she said. “All of the rest of them, in my mind, could have been mitigated or decreased substantially.”

Trump criticized Birx for not following her own advice, citing a family trip she took the day after Thanksgiving, while the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was advising Americans not to travel over the holidays. Birx later announced that she would retire from her position.

In the past, Birx has said that she “always” thought of quitting the Trump administration over the hyperpartisan nature of the workplace.

“Dr. Birx was a terrible medical advisor, which is why I seldom followed her advice,” Trump said in his statement.
In the interview that aired Sunday, Birx also spoke about a phone call she received from Trump after speaking publicly on CNN in August about the spread of Covid-19.

“Everybody in the White House was upset with that interview and the clarity that I brought about the epidemic,” she said. “I got called by the president. It was very uncomfortable, very direct and very difficult to hear.”


Trump denied that there was a “very difficult” phone call, and criticized Birx for her policies, which he said “would have led us directly into a COVID caused depression.”

“Time has proven me correct,” he said. “I only kept Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx on because they worked for the U.S. government for so long — they are like a bad habit!”

[Mickeypoo]

(03-30-2021, 10:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then educated people know the huge differences between New York and Texas that effect rate of covid infection.

Only people who depend on the right-wing media for all their information think they are "not much different".

I don't depend on any specific media no matter how many times you say it, but if it gives you warm fuzzy's to keep saying it, you go right ahead buddy.

Is all media except Fox ok with you?  What exactly is your preferred criteria for "news" outlets?  Do you have a Fred approved list of acceptable media outlets that are unbiased and only report the truth?  What media resources am I allowed to post that you will not immediately discount?

I heard Texas lifted the mask mandate and then I Googled the stats and looked at the numbers from the date of the mandate being lifted to current date.

Riiiiiiiight.   The "educated" people.  Like the ones who basically said Texas would turn into doom and death over 3 weeks ago?   Like the ones who have flip flopped 15 times on masks since Covid started?  pfft.

[GMDino]

(03-30-2021, 02:05 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I don't depend on any specific media no matter how many times you say it, but if it gives you warm fuzzy's to keep saying it, you go right ahead buddy.

Is all media except Fox ok with you?  What exactly is your preferred criteria for "news" outlets?  Do you have a Fred approved list of acceptable media outlets that are unbiased and only report the truth?  What media resources am I allowed to post that you will not immediately discount?

I heard Texas lifted the mask mandate and then I Googled the stats and looked at the numbers from the date of the mandate being lifted to current date.

Riiiiiiiight.   The "educated" people.  Like the ones who basically said Texas would turn into doom and death over 3 weeks ago?   Like the ones who have flip flopped 15 times on masks since Covid started?  pfft.

This was a month ago:

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/by-the-numbers-texas-reopening/285-fb52da78-ad7c-4566-b016-e6d685b38ecf

Quote:“More than 5.7 million vaccine shots have already been given to Texans," Abbott said.


But 5.7 million is just the total number of shots given. State data shows the total number of people fully vaccinated is only 1,984,199, as of Tuesday.


That’s just under 7% (6.8%) of Texas’ total population while other states have much higher vaccination rates.


In terms of coronavirus hospitalizations, let’s take a look at where Texas stands.


“Hospitalizations are the lowest they’ve been in four months," Abbott said.


State data shows that as of Tuesday, there are currently 5,644 COVID-19 patients hospitalized in Texas. The last time Texas hospitalizations were that low was Oct. 29 when there were 5,627 hospitalizations. Hospitalizations were even lower a month earlier when there were 3,081 on Sept. 19.


Next, let's talk about our positivity rate.


“Today is the lowest positivity rate we’ve had in four months," Abbott said.


State data shows Tuesday was the first day that Texas’s positivity rate dropped under 9% (8.7%) since Oct. 15 (8.9%). But Harris County’s positivity rate is still much higher than that. It was 13.1% as of Tuesday. 


New confirmed cases have also dropped significantly since January. But one thing to keep in mind – the winter storm put a halt to testing for several days so any drop off in new confirmed cases may be misleading.

One number you can't forget is that Texas has had more than 43,000 people die from the virus out of the nearly 2.3 million people infected.


The only states that have higher death tolls are California and New York.

There has been some drop since then, that's true.

The question is if that can continue as mitigations methods are completely dropped.

But I also understand that Texas politicians don't care as long as they can say they were tough and independent. 

[Mickeypoo]

(03-30-2021, 02:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: This was a month ago:

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/by-the-numbers-texas-reopening/285-fb52da78-ad7c-4566-b016-e6d685b38ecf



There has been some drop since then, that's true.

The question is if that can continue as mitigations methods are completely dropped.

But I also understand that Texas politicians don't care as long as they can say they were tough and independent. 

Nah, I think they just realize at this point in time mask mandates and lockdowns are ridiculous.

[GMDino]

(03-30-2021, 02:24 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Nah, I think they just realize at this point in time mask mandates and lockdowns are ridiculous.

Well there is some good, scientific based fact filled decisions. 

I mean personally I don't care you or any one is Texas wants to lick doorknobs and have coughing parties with each other...but the facts don't back up your or their claims.  

Again, it doesn't matter becuase the gop is all about what they "feel" right now...whether it is true or not....when it come to the virus.

[fredtoast]

(03-30-2021, 02:05 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I don't depend on any specific media no matter how many times you say it, but if it gives you warm fuzzy's to keep saying it, you go right ahead buddy.

It has nothing to do with "warm fuzzies".  Instead it is the fact that every point you btry to make is almost word-for-word from the right-wing propaganda sources.

For example

(03-30-2021, 02:05 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote:   Like the ones who have flip flopped 15 times on masks since Covid started?  pfft.

No one has flip flopped 15 times over mask use.  The only source for claims like that is the right-wing echo chamber.

Fauci changed his mind  once based on learning more about the virus.  If you actually looked at facts you would know this.  Who else are you claiming has changed their mind multiple times over the benefits of wearing masks.

[Mickeypoo]

(03-30-2021, 02:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well there is some good, scientific based fact filled decisions. 

I mean personally I don't care you or any one is Texas wants to lick doorknobs and have coughing parties with each other...but the facts don't back up your or their claims.  

Again, it doesn't matter becuase the gop is all about what they "feel" right now...whether it is true or not....when it come to the virus.

Actually, the numbers do back up my claims. 

TX March 2.....7 day average deaths 232

TX March 31...7 day average deaths 102

TX March 2.....7 day average cases  7259

TX March 31...7 day average cases  3883

FL March 2.....7 day average deaths 132

FL March 31...7 day average deaths 74

FL March 2.....7 day average cases 5652

FL March 31...7 day average cases 5133

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the Nanny State "everybody is going to die" locked down NY.

NY March 2....7 day average deaths 112

NY March 31..7 day average deaths 103

NY March 2....7 day average cases 7399

NY March 31..7 day average cases 9882

Let the excuses and "science" fly boys.  I am sure there are a bunch.  lmao!!

[Mickeypoo]

(03-30-2021, 03:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It has nothing to do with "warm fuzzies".  Instead it is the fact that every point you btry to make is almost word-for-word from the right-wing propaganda sources.

For example



No one has flip flopped 15 times over mask use.  The only source for claims like that is the right-wing echo chamber.

Fauci changed his mind  once based on learning more about the virus.  If you actually looked at facts you would know this.  Who else are you claiming has changed their mind multiple times over the benefits of wearing masks.

Keep trying buddy, keep trying.  I got that from watching Fauci himself flip flop on masks more than once.  Just because my own personal opinion may line up with a particular slant does not mean I got that view from any one specific source. If I had a dollar for every time you guys said Right Wing or Fox.  lmao!!

[GMDino]

(03-31-2021, 10:40 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Keep trying buddy, keep trying.  I got that from watching Fauci himself flip flop on masks more than once.  Just because my own personal opinion may line up with a particular slant does not mean I got that view from any one specific source. If I had a dollar for every time you guys said Right Wing or Fox.  lmao!!

What is so hard about understanding that this virus was a new variation and that as we learned more we adjusted how to handle it?

Are people just dumb or willfully ignorant?

I swear some of y'all would still be using bleeding as a method...after all medicine "flip flopped" about it working.

[GMDino]

(03-31-2021, 10:35 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Actually, the numbers do back up my claims. 

TX March 2.....7 day average deaths 232

TX March 31...7 day average deaths 102

TX March 2.....7 day average cases  7259

TX March 31...7 day average cases  3883

FL March 2.....7 day average deaths 132

FL March 31...7 day average deaths 74

FL March 2.....7 day average cases 5652

FL March 31...7 day average cases 5133

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the Nanny State "everybody is going to die" locked down NY.

NY March 2....7 day average deaths 112

NY March 31..7 day average deaths 103

NY March 2....7 day average cases 7399

NY March 31..7 day average cases 9882

Let the excuses and "science" fly boys.  I am sure there are a bunch.  lmao!!

Link?

[Mickeypoo]

(03-31-2021, 10:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: Link?

Google "Texas covid deaths", or any other state.  You will see a NY Times interactive timeline where you can change the state and view cases, deaths and the rolling 7 day average.  Just mouse over the graph to see the day to day numbers and the rolling average.

[Mickeypoo]

(03-31-2021, 10:43 AM)GMDino Wrote: What is so hard about understanding that this virus was a new variation and that as we learned more we adjusted how to handle it?

Are people just dumb or willfully ignorant?

I swear some of y'all would still be using bleeding as a method...after all medicine "flip flopped" about it working.

Nah man, nothing that complicated. 

If Covid was as bad and as dangerous as they tried to make us believe it was (well some of you believe it) then you would not see all the pols and actors and celebs and the Cuomo Bros with their giant dildo skit laughing and not social distancing/not mask wearing and out at parties and dinners with friends, etc, etc, etc, etc.  Chris C and his fake basement "coming out" party, etc.  They aren't scared.........Hmmmmmmmmm.

Do you even realize that only 11K people average per state over 16 months have died from Covid?   Ya, let's go batshit cray cray and lock everything down and keep kids out of school and crush our economy.

[GMDino]

(03-31-2021, 01:54 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Nah man, nothing that complicated. 

If Covid was as bad and as dangerous as they tried to make us believe it was (well some of you believe it) then you would not see all the pols and actors and celebs and the Cuomo Bros with their giant dildo skit laughing and not social distancing/not mask wearing and out at parties and dinners with friends, etc, etc, etc, etc.  Chris C and his fake basement "coming out" party, etc.  They aren't scared.........Hmmmmmmmmm.

Do you even realize that only 11K people average per state over 16 months have died from Covid?   Ya, let's go batshit cray cray and lock everything down and keep kids out of school and crush our economy.

So some celebrities didn't take it seriously and that convinces you that no one should have?  That sounds slightly delusional on your part and completely avoids the point I was making about "flip flopping". Probably because you know you're wrong but maybe because you're just believing whatever you want devoid of facts.


But once again we see you don't care about deaths as long as you can justify how many there were.

[Mickeypoo]

(03-31-2021, 02:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: So some celebrities didn't take it seriously and that convinces you that no one should have?  That sounds slightly delusional on your part and completely avoids the point I was making about "flip flopping".  Probably because you know you're wrong but maybe because you're just believing whatever you want devoid of facts.


But once again we see you don't care about deaths as long as you can justify how many there were.

No, it's more the people saying, on national TV, that you are a murderer if you don't social distance and wear a mask and then getting caught not social distancing or wearing masks.  Believe what you want.

So let's remove the emotion of death for a minute and let's zoom way out to about 120k feet.  

A little globe that is about 20% habitable land wise.  The USA is a small fraction of that, is broken up into 48 pieces (49 if you count Alaska in the continental US) and with 320-350M little people scurrying about.  They have a stable, but fragile system.  Like ants in their colony.

Now here comes Covid.  It wipes out on avg. 11K per 49 pieces over 16 months.  Each piece has, except for a few, at least 1M People and the most populated up to 10's of millions of people.

It does not seem prudent or wise to have such a massive upheaval and disruption of the fragile system that would effect 10's to 100's of millions of people for such a small amount death (550k comparatively to 320-350M).

As you saw in my numbers from my earlier post, it does not appear to make much of a difference whether one of the 49 pieces created massive upheaval vs one of the pieces that did not.  This is even more of a reason to not create a state of fear, panic, upheaval and disruption.  In the long term the system would be better served to stay stable.

Now, if we are talking death on a massive scale, 10's of milions USA and 100's of millions worldwide of all ages/all health ranges, then yes, you have to try and save the "hive" (earth) (humans) by any means necessary.

Inserting emotion into these kinds of things takes away the ability to think clearly about what needs to be done long and short term.

With 550K dead over 16 months and a population of 320-350M you simply cannot convince me that the drastic measures we took, that effected 10's to 100's of millions of people were correct or worth it.  Also, at this point, the numbers don't bear out that most of it was necessary.

Do I have a sense of sadness for people who have lost loved ones to Covid?  Of course I do, but you cannot let that emotion interfere with what is best long term for the whole of the people. 

[GMDino]

(04-01-2021, 11:25 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: No, it's more the people saying, on national TV, that you are a murderer if you don't social distance and wear a mask and then getting caught not social distancing or wearing masks.  Believe what you want.

So let's remove the emotion of death for a minute and let's zoom way out to about 120k feet.  

A little globe that is about 20% habitable land wise.  The USA is a small fraction of that, is broken up into 48 pieces (49 if you count Alaska in the continental US) and with 320-350M little people scurrying about.  They have a stable, but fragile system.  Like ants in their colony.

Now here comes Covid.  It wipes out on avg. 11K per 49 pieces over 16 months.  Each piece has, except for a few, at least 1M People and the most populated up to 10's of millions of people.

It does not seem prudent or wise to have such a massive upheaval and disruption of the fragile system that would effect 10's to 100's of millions of people for such a small amount death (550k comparatively to 320-350M).

As you saw in my numbers from my earlier post, it does not appear to make much of a difference whether one of the 49 pieces created massive upheaval vs one of the pieces that did not.  This is even more of a reason to not create a state of fear, panic, upheaval and disruption.  In the long term the system would be better served to stay stable.

Now, if we are talking death on a massive scale, 10's of milions USA and 100's of millions worldwide of all ages/all health ranges, then yes, you have to try and save the "hive" (earth) (humans) by any means necessary.

Inserting emotion into these kinds of things takes away the ability to think clearly about what needs to be done long and short term.

With 550K dead over 16 months and a population of 320-350M you simply cannot convince me that the drastic measures we took, that effected 10's to 100's of millions of people were correct or worth it.  Also, at this point, the numbers don't bear out that most of it was necessary.

Do I have a sense of sadness for people who have lost loved ones to Covid?  Of course I do, but you cannot let that emotion interfere with what is best long term for the whole of the people. 

This is still purely subjective on your part.  Even Trump's own people said we would have seen deaths in the millions had we not followed mitigation methods.

But I'm not surprised that there are people out here, you among them, who just don't care about anyone else unless it's about money (the economy).  Greed and selfishness will be our downfall just like every other civilization before us.

[*Nately120*]

(04-01-2021, 11:25 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: No, it's more the people saying, on national TV, that you are a murderer if you don't social distance and wear a mask and then getting caught not social distancing or wearing masks.  Believe what you want.

So let's remove the emotion of death for a minute and let's zoom way out to about 120k feet.  

A little globe that is about 20% habitable land wise.  The USA is a small fraction of that, is broken up into 48 pieces (49 if you count Alaska in the continental US) and with 320-350M little people scurrying about.  They have a stable, but fragile system.  Like ants in their colony.

Now here comes Covid.  It wipes out on avg. 11K per 49 pieces over 16 months.  Each piece has, except for a few, at least 1M People and the most populated up to 10's of millions of people.

It does not seem prudent or wise to have such a massive upheaval and disruption of the fragile system that would effect 10's to 100's of millions of people for such a small amount death (550k comparatively to 320-350M).

As you saw in my numbers from my earlier post, it does not appear to make much of a difference whether one of the 49 pieces created massive upheaval vs one of the pieces that did not.  This is even more of a reason to not create a state of fear, panic, upheaval and disruption.  In the long term the system would be better served to stay stable.

Now, if we are talking death on a massive scale, 10's of milions USA and 100's of millions worldwide of all ages/all health ranges, then yes, you have to try and save the "hive" (earth) (humans) by any means necessary.

Inserting emotion into these kinds of things takes away the ability to think clearly about what needs to be done long and short term.

With 550K dead over 16 months and a population of 320-350M you simply cannot convince me that the drastic measures we took, that effected 10's to 100's of millions of people were correct or worth it.  Also, at this point, the numbers don't bear out that most of it was necessary.

Do I have a sense of sadness for people who have lost loved ones to Covid?  Of course I do, but you cannot let that emotion interfere with what is best long term for the whole of the people. 

I'll admit I'm not very in tune with that the media, entertainment or "news" has to say about covid, but you are peaching a "logic over emotions" mantra but you are using what looks like a very emotional and hyperbolic approach to covid relevant restrictions and measures.

At any rate, asking human beings to take emotion out of any equation, particularly one that involves the deaths of reasonably innocent people, seems like a fool's errand, at best.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-01-2021, 12:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: This is still purely subjective on your part.  Even Trump's own people said we would have seen deaths in the millions had we not followed mitigation methods.

But I'm not surprised that there are people out here, you among them, who just don't care about anyone else unless it's about money (the economy).  Greed and selfishness will be our downfall just like every other civilization before us.

But that is also subjective, because there is no way to know what would have happened with no mitigation.  When Texas ended the mask mandate people also said there would be doom and death, but just the opposite happened.  We can see the numbers from places that are still locked down vs open and the numbers are very similar or in some cases even better for the open state.

Why do you think I do not care about anyone else and where did I say it's just about the money.  It's about the big picture and long term outlook.

Listen, I tried to nicely and genuinely explain how I viewed Covid and the lockdowns, etc.  I am sorry if it was not a genius level thesis.  If all you got out of what I posted was what you wrote above, I don't know what to tell you.

[fredtoast]

(03-31-2021, 10:40 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote:
I got that from watching Fauci himself flip flop on masks more than once.  Just because my own personal opinion may line up with a particular slant does not mean I got that view from any one specific source. 

Post a link.

[GMDino]

(04-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: But that is also subjective, because there is no way to know what would have happened with no mitigation.  When Texas ended the mask mandate people also said there would be doom and death, but just the opposite happened.  We can see the numbers from places that are still locked down vs open and the numbers are very similar or in some cases even better for the open state.

Why do you think I do not care about anyone else and where did I say it's just about the money.  It's about the big picture and long term outlook.

Listen, I tried to nicely and genuinely explain how I viewed Covid and the lockdowns, etc.  I am sorry if it was not a genius level thesis.  If all you got out of what I posted was what you wrote above, I don't know what to tell you.

Doesn't have to be genius level...it has to make sense.  And it makes perfect sense.  You don't believe the virus was bad, you think we killed the economy for nothing.  i.e. The economy was more important that any lives that were potentially saved.  It's not hard, I just read what you post.

So my comment remains true:  People out there, including you, care more about the economy than saving any lives.  Doesn't matter if it is 1 or 500,000.  That doesn't surprise me.

Our inability to care about each other because it might cost a buck or someone else might get a little bit ahead is well documented in this country and the history of the world.  That doesn't surprise me.

It will be years before we know what worked, what didn't...but we already know that lots of people would rather see other people die than see the economy slow down while we try to save lives.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-01-2021, 02:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: Doesn't have to be genius level...it has to make sense.  And it makes perfect sense.  You don't believe the virus was bad, you think we killed the economy for nothing.  i.e. The economy was more important that any lives that were potentially saved.  It's not hard, I just read what you post.

So my comment remains true:  People out there, including you, care more about the economy than saving any lives.  Doesn't matter if it is 1 or 500,000.  That doesn't surprise me.

Our inability to care about each other because it might cost a buck or someone else might get a little bit ahead is well documented in this country and the history of the world.  That doesn't surprise me.

It will be years before we know what worked, what didn't...but we already know that lots of people would rather see other people die than see the economy slow down while we try to save lives.

I don't believe I have ever listed the economy on it's own.  There are many, many negative effects from lockdowns, some long term.  I care more about the "health" of the Country as a whole (320-350M) over the long term more than 550k people, yes. But that does not mean I do not care at all.

I respect what you believe.  I just have a different point of view and it appears to be backed up by the numbers at this point.