The Fight Against Fascists (I Can't Believe This Exists)

[Dill]

(06-09-2021, 12:04 AM)Benton Wrote: In our short life as a democracy, Trump is probably the closest thing we've had to a fascist.

Should we vilify him for that? I dunno, probably.

Should we use him as a cautionary tale on not blindly following morons just because of party? Definitely.

How the dude was not impeached for advocating for a coupe then walking away from it is mind boggling, and troubling. The thing is, he probably didn't think ... with all the rhetoric from Paul and Cruz and equal morons ... that there was anything wrong with saying people were stealing from his supporters and they need to forcefully take things back.

Well, Trump is in the running for most authoritarian and anti-democratic, that is for sure. 

I don't think his anti-democratic behavior flows from principle, though, as it would from a true fascist. 

Rather, Trump is just an unethical opportunist who doesn't understand or think much about rule of law. If he sees a personal advantage in breaking the law and can get away with it, he will. E.g., using state resources to coerce a foreign leader to harm one of his domestic political opponents. So not the kind of person you want in charge of a nation based on rule of law. 

But the bolded is the real problem. It's not just Trump. A significant number of his followers also embrace the anti-democratic behavior, and this concentrates it in party power. That is why he was not impeached. And that is how he continues to exert powerful control over Congress. The Party represents and protects him now, even out of office.  One cannot now hold a position of party leadership and hold Trump accountable for anti-democratic behavior.

In 2020, many Republican state officials courageously called the election as they saw it, and refused to be intimidated--even under direct coercion from Trump. Trump-appointed judges did their job impartially. So although one of the firewalls against anti-democratic leadership failed when Trump escaped impeachment twice, another one held during the election--but just barely.

Now Trump and his Fox/OANN backers understand that their power/ratings depend on continued undermining of election legitimacy--not only Biden's win but in prep for the upcoming 2022 midterms. That means amplifying disinformation about the election and recounts.  It means legislation according state officials and legislatures more power to "oversee" tabulation of election results. It means using party power to coerce Republican election officials in critical states to go along, so that election results, if unfavorable to the Trump party, can be "managed"--thus wholly taking out that already weakened firewall.

The crisis of our democracy didn't pass after 1/6. It continues to grow.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2021, 05:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I will say, though, that I think Trump wants to be a fascist dictator, he just doesn't understand how antithetical to everything the idea of the United States stands for his vision is.

While votes were still being counted he went on TV and said the election is over and thank you for reelecting me.  I'd say his desire to simply decide to be president because he says he is is pretty clear.  I'd argue some of the fanatical Trump supporters seem to want to install the Trump family as the USA's royal family with the added caveat that they are also the prime political figures also flies in the face of why we even bothered to establish ourselves as a country.

Based on his actions, yea he clearly wants to be a fascist dictator and since he can't actually just implement a government where he can enforce the notion of "I won, don't bother counting the votes" he can do the next best thing and convince a segment of the population that he is the real president.  In short, I'd suggest wiping that doubt from your mind, but I'm a bit of a judgmental type, I guess. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-09-2021, 12:04 AM)Benton Wrote: In our short life as a democracy, Trump is probably the closest thing we've had to a fascist.

Should we vilify him for that? I dunno, probably.

Should we use him as a cautionary tale on not blindly following morons just because of party? Definitely.

How the dude was not impeached for advocating for a coupe then walking away from it is mind boggling, and troubling. The thing is, he probably didn't think ... with all the rhetoric from Paul and Cruz and equal morons ... that there was anything wrong with saying people were stealing from his supporters and they need to forcefully take things back.

How? You've never had that conversation with your family before?

Surely, when you were younger, you wanted to race and enjoy your car, so a coupe would be the absolute best thing imaginable; you weren't thinking about the future or having kids, so a traditional sedan or SUV wouldn't have even crossed your mind.

Now, if it was a Cavalier (or rather nowadays, the Cruze), Sunfire or Escort coupe, I too would walk-away, as that is definitely not mind-boggling (terrible cars).





PS: I do realise it is abhorrently-insensitive of me to make light of things in this thread, but I REALLY couldn't resist

[*Nately120*]

(06-09-2021, 01:57 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: How? You've never had that conversation with your family before?

Surely, when you were younger, you wanted to race and enjoy your car, so a coupe would be the absolute best thing imaginable; you weren't thinking about the future or having kids, so a traditional sedan or SUV wouldn't have even crossed your mind.

Now, if it was a Cavalier (or rather nowadays, the Cruze), Sunfire or Escort coupe, I too would walk-away, as that is definitely not mind-boggling (terrible cars).





PS: I do realise it is abhorrently-insensitive of me to make light of things in this thread, but I REALLY couldn't resist

Is it a little douche coupe?

[Dill]

(06-08-2021, 10:34 PM)samhain Wrote: I'm not really joking here.  I think many MAGA types would be fine with killing people who politically disagree with them if they thought they could do it without life-wrecking legal consequences, and especially if Trump or his eventual political heir could frame it as a state-sponsored act.  I guarantee they'd do it if the people being executed were strangers.  I reckon a lot wouldn't have much issue giving up family and friends, either.  

Well, we have had several breaches of state capitols, including by armed rioters.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/01/oregon-state-capitol-republican-charged
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-rally-shelter-place-order-spills-capitol-building/story?id=70432928

And a plot to capture, try, and execute the gov. of Michigan.
https://apnews.com/article/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-indictments-coronavirus-pandemic-traverse-city-10f7e02c57004da9843f89650edd4510

We can add that to the U.S. Capitol breach, which included people carrying zip ties and chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" 

I think it is safe to say SOME "MAGA types" would kill political opponents, though would probably try them as traitors first. 

We want to be careful as to how far we generalize this. Remember that Trump defenders are looking for all manner of hyperbole and misattribution to create equivalence between party behavior, to normalize anti-democratic behavior and political violence on their side. (E.g., comparing the Capitol insurrection to some of the rioting following George Floyd protests--as if Joe Biden urged the rioters on and the Dem party demoted any official who called him to account.) 

Hannity is on every night telling his audience that Dems are using the statistically small number of Capitol protestors (whom he alternately calls "patriots" and "criminals") to tar ALL Trump supporters. If we confirm Hannity, we are only inducing his audience to further tune out the very legitimate criticisms of Trump's anti-democratic behavior and his base's tolerance, if not outright support, for that behavior. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-09-2021, 02:20 PM)Dill Wrote: And a plot to capture, try, and execute the gov. of Michigan.
https://apnews.com/article/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-indictments-coronavirus-pandemic-traverse-city-10f7e02c57004da9843f89650edd4510

Fwiw, that attempt was plotted by a anarchist militia, who would probably fit in pretty well with Antifa. At least much more than they would any conservative or MAGA group.  They were anti-government and anti-police.

https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/09/suspect-has-history-of-anti-government-social-media-posts/

I'm not sure if you were just listing them as another example to balance out the types that engage in this behavior, or if you were linking to them to Trump, but I do remember that when this news broke a lot of people heard the word "militia", looked at their skin color (white) and where they were from (bumfuck Michigan) and automatically assumed they were something they're not.  I remember watching some of the videos that came out and being shocked at just how anti-police they were.  If recall, I think they were referred to as being slavemasters.

Here's some quotes I highlighted from the article, for those that don't feel like following the link...

“The Declaration of Independence was an anarchist document. It was a document that said, ‘you don’t own me’,” said Caserta in one of the videos.

“They are oppressing you for a paycheck,” he said in another video shared by director Robby Starbuck via Twitter on Thursday.

“If you are still supporting them, you are supporting the people that are enforcing slavery on everyone else,” Caserta said.

In another video, Caserta criticizes President Donald Trump; saying Trump isn’t your friend.

“It amazes me people actually believe that, when he’s shown over and over and over again that he’s a tyrant. Every single person who works for government is your enemy, dude,” Caserta said.

These people are freaking dangerous, just as Antifa is.  If they had their way they would tear down the entire system.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-09-2021, 02:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, that attempt was plotted by a anarchist militia, who would probably fit in pretty well with Antifa. At least much more than they would any conservative or MAGA group.  They were anti-government and anti-police.

https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/09/suspect-has-history-of-anti-government-social-media-posts/

I'm not sure if you were just listing them as another example to balance out the types that engage in this behavior, or if you were linking to them to Trump, but I do remember that when this news broke a lot of people heard the word "militia", looked at their skin color (white) and where they were from (bumfuck Michigan) and automatically assumed they were something they're not.  I remember watching some of the videos that came out and being shocked at just how anti-police they were.  If recall, I think they were referred to as being slavemasters.

Here's some quotes I highlighted from the article, for those that don't feel like following the link...

“The Declaration of Independence was an anarchist document. It was a document that said, ‘you don’t own me’,” said Caserta in one of the videos.

“They are oppressing you for a paycheck,” he said in another video shared by director Robby Starbuck via Twitter on Thursday.

“If you are still supporting them, you are supporting the people that are enforcing slavery on everyone else,” Caserta said.

In another video, Caserta criticizes President Donald Trump; saying Trump isn’t your friend.

“It amazes me people actually believe that, when he’s shown over and over and over again that he’s a tyrant. Every single person who works for government is your enemy, dude,” Caserta said.

These people are freaking dangerous, just as Antifa is.  If they had their way they would tear down the entire system.

Additionally, the protest by armed people at the state capitol was completely peaceful.  There was zero rioting and open carry is completely legal in MI.  More evidence of how gun owners are tarred with a broad brush by the media.  But burning down businesses and looting is mostly peaceful.

[Dill]

(06-09-2021, 02:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, that attempt was plotted by a anarchist militia, who would probably fit in pretty well with Antifa. At least much more than they would any conservative or MAGA group.  They were anti-government and anti-police.

https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/09/suspect-has-history-of-anti-government-social-media-posts/

I'm not sure if you were just listing them as another example to balance out the types that engage in this behavior, or if you were linking to them to Trump, but I do remember that when this news broke a lot of people heard the word "militia", looked at their skin color (white) and where they were from (bumfuck Michigan) and automatically assumed they were something they're not.  I remember watching some of the videos that came out and being shocked at just how anti-police they were.  If recall, I think they were referred to as being slavemasters.

Here's some quotes I highlighted from the article, for those that don't feel like following the link...

“The Declaration of Independence was an anarchist document. It was a document that said, ‘you don’t own me’,” said Caserta in one of the videos.

“They are oppressing you for a paycheck,” he said in another video shared by director Robby Starbuck via Twitter on Thursday.

“If you are still supporting them, you are supporting the people that are enforcing slavery on everyone else,” Caserta said.

In another video, Caserta criticizes President Donald Trump; saying Trump isn’t your friend.

“It amazes me people actually believe that, when he’s shown over and over and over again that he’s a tyrant. Every single person who works for government is your enemy, dude,” Caserta said.

These people are freaking dangerous, just as Antifa is.  If they had their way they would tear down the entire system.

Ha,ha, you're going to keep me honest, Wes.  Well good. I wish someone would!

Let's consider whether the "Wolverine Watchmen" are a better fit with ANTIFA than MAGA movements.

First I want to set aside one register of comparison which won't be helpful--the strictly legal. If an ANTIFA member goes to a BLM protest and hits a cop with a bike lock and a Watchman goes to the protest to protest BLM and hits a cop with a bike lock then, if both have no priors, their acts are legally equivalent and should be punished the same.  Legal equivalence does not mean ideological equivalence here. 

But what if both groups are anti-government and anti-police? Are they "alike" then? Probably not if you are an FBI Intel analyst/interpreter looking to assess threats emanating from political activists and to predict possible targets and their specific triggers to violent action. And here it turns out your WILX 10 link is slim pickins for that kind of analysis/assessment. 

E.g., preliminary assessments of their social media accounts link some Watchmen to far right groups like the Boogaloo Boys and extreme 2A groups. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-alleged-whitmer-kidnapping/fact-check-the-ideologies-of-the-individuals-behind-the-alleged-michigan-kidnapping-plot-idUSKBN27B23K
They were heavily into tactical "training" in the Michigan woods with "military style" weapons in preparation for the "Boogaloo."  
https://wwmt.com/news/local/members-of-wolverine-watchmen-militia-group-were-preparing-for-the-boogaloo
https://www.thedailybeast.com/with-the-gov-gretchen-whitmer-busts-16-boogaloo-followers-have-been-busted-in-7-days

So they are following the 2A political fantasy about a civil war which erupts when the government comes for our guns. 

Several of them protested a protest against Trump's Muslim ban. https://www.abc12.com/2020/10/09/whitmer-kidnapping-plot-suspect-made-threats-toward-2017-flint-rally/ 
Some of the Watchmen, like Pete Musico, were clearly Trump supporters and followed most of the Fox conspiracy theories about Russia. At least one extended his anti-government hate to Trump, sure. That's consistent with the logic of the group, what also turns them against police as an enforcement arm of government. 

One had a Confederate flag hanging in his room, another a Gadsen flag on his lawn--with a bunch "Trump for President" signs.  One intensifier of their antigovernment hate was disinformation surrounding COVID and the restrictions imposed by Michigan's governor last year. So far as I can tell, their reading of the Constitution is not "anti-fascist" but the kind of Constitutional fundamentalism which prevails on the far right, especially in militias.

I still want to consider ANTIFA here to complete the comparison, but I won't get to that until tomorrow. 

So far though, I don't think the Wolverine Watchmen fit very well with ANTIFA, do they? Are there MAGA supporters who share some of their values? We can consider that tomorrow. 

[Benton]

(06-09-2021, 01:57 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: How? You've never had that conversation with your family before?

Surely, when you were younger, you wanted to race and enjoy your car, so a coupe would be the absolute best thing imaginable; you weren't thinking about the future or having kids, so a traditional sedan or SUV wouldn't have even crossed your mind.

Now, if it was a Cavalier (or rather nowadays, the Cruze), Sunfire or Escort coupe, I too would walk-away, as that is definitely not mind-boggling (terrible cars).





PS: I do realise it is abhorrently-insensitive of me to make light of things in this thread, but I REALLY couldn't resist

Ok, I deserved that for not spell checking.

[samhain]

(06-09-2021, 02:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, that attempt was plotted by a anarchist militia, who would probably fit in pretty well with Antifa. At least much more than they would any conservative or MAGA group.  They were anti-government and anti-police.

https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/09/suspect-has-history-of-anti-government-social-media-posts/

I'm not sure if you were just listing them as another example to balance out the types that engage in this behavior, or if you were linking to them to Trump, but I do remember that when this news broke a lot of people heard the word "militia", looked at their skin color (white) and where they were from (bumfuck Michigan) and automatically assumed they were something they're not.  I remember watching some of the videos that came out and being shocked at just how anti-police they were.  If recall, I think they were referred to as being slavemasters.

Here's some quotes I highlighted from the article, for those that don't feel like following the link...

“The Declaration of Independence was an anarchist document. It was a document that said, ‘you don’t own me’,” said Caserta in one of the videos.

“They are oppressing you for a paycheck,” he said in another video shared by director Robby Starbuck via Twitter on Thursday.

“If you are still supporting them, you are supporting the people that are enforcing slavery on everyone else,” Caserta said.

In another video, Caserta criticizes President Donald Trump; saying Trump isn’t your friend.

“It amazes me people actually believe that, when he’s shown over and over and over again that he’s a tyrant. Every single person who works for government is your enemy, dude,” Caserta said.

These people are freaking dangerous, just as Antifa is.  If they had their way they would tear down the entire system.

I'll take the militia members over that MAGA group any day, although most of them are probably ride or die Trumpers.  At least militia members have consistent principles and justifications.  They hate the gubmint plain and simple, and nothing will make them trust anything the Federal branch does.  

MAGA types are far worse.  They have, uh, let's say "loose" principles when it comes to any policy other than getting rid of all the Mexicans ASAP.  They're basically just Mr Garrison from South Park given life and in huge numbers.  Other than that, their only beliefs are whatever comes out of DJT's mouth at any given moment.  It could be something they despised their entire life, but if it Trump tells them it's legit MAGA, they'll die for it.  MAGA conservatives are not a policy-oriented bunch.  They are honestly just a fan club that has sadly been given a ton of political power.  

Honestly. we've had oddball gun collectors and militia types basically forever in this country.  It's rare that actually they do anything outside of standing around and totally not threatening anyone at all with long guns in public places during politically charged events.  It only took MAGA being around 4 years to invade the actual capitol.    Looks like the militia guys need to step up their game, lol.

[Brownshoe]

(06-07-2021, 04:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Create a modern day version of what England did with Australia and just send them all there.

Build a wall (hear me out)  around North Dakota and round up every Antifa and Qanon ******* and put them in there.  Then clear out a sizeable portion of the prison system, those that facing 40+ year sentences and throw them in the mix too.  Someone gets sentenced to death?  Not anymore they don't.  They get sentenced to North Dakota.  Someone tweets about Pizzagate?  North Dakota.  Someone wearing all black with a megaphone, umbrella, and a brick.  North Dakota.

Hey, leave North Dakota alone. It's a great place to earn a lot of money. The winter is terrible though.

[CJD]

(06-09-2021, 02:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, that attempt was plotted by a anarchist militia, who would probably fit in pretty well with Antifa. At least much more than they would any conservative or MAGA group.  They were anti-government and anti-police.

https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/09/suspect-has-history-of-anti-government-social-media-posts/

I'm not sure if you were just listing them as another example to balance out the types that engage in this behavior, or if you were linking to them to Trump, but I do remember that when this news broke a lot of people heard the word "militia", looked at their skin color (white) and where they were from (bumfuck Michigan) and automatically assumed they were something they're not.  I remember watching some of the videos that came out and being shocked at just how anti-police they were.  If recall, I think they were referred to as being slavemasters.

Here's some quotes I highlighted from the article, for those that don't feel like following the link...

“The Declaration of Independence was an anarchist document. It was a document that said, ‘you don’t own me’,” said Caserta in one of the videos.

“They are oppressing you for a paycheck,” he said in another video shared by director Robby Starbuck via Twitter on Thursday.

“If you are still supporting them, you are supporting the people that are enforcing slavery on everyone else,” Caserta said.

In another video, Caserta criticizes President Donald Trump; saying Trump isn’t your friend.

“It amazes me people actually believe that, when he’s shown over and over and over again that he’s a tyrant. Every single person who works for government is your enemy, dude,” Caserta said.

These people are freaking dangerous, just as Antifa is.  If they had their way they would tear down the entire system.

Libertarians and objectivists (the ones who believe "tax is theft") generally consider themselves conservative. "Don't tread on me" etc etc. It isn't entirely consistent with other conservatives, especially those who have idolized Trump, the head of the state, to the extent that MAGA folks have, but there are different ways to define rightwing vs leftwing.

There are a few different theories on what defines left vs right. Most leftists believe the metric is "egalitarianism vs hierarchies" (socialism/communism/anarchism being 100% egalitarian, with fascism/monarchy/dictatorship being 100% hierarchy) and that is how they define what is left and what is right. Anything that encourages equality or equal rights for all people would be a left wing concept, for example. That's why you see leftists claiming the abolition of slavery and the civil rights acts as left wing movements.

The other way to categorize the two sides is "more freedom vs less freedom." This is what most right wing anarchists ascribe to. They believe that anything the government does removes freedom. Regulations on business removes freedom. Mandates from the government removes freedom. Taxes remove freedom. etc etc. Police would also fall under that umbrella, making a right wing anarchist's hatred of police be consistent with their ideology despite being against the "law and order" concept from most right wingers. 

They want to do what they want, when they want and they don't want the government trying to stop them. Of course, this theory only considers positive freedoms. It completely ignores negative freedoms, such as a law from the government that outlaws murder. Despite being a mandate from the government, that law doesn't remove freedom from its citizens (unless that citizen wants to go murder people, of course). It universally gives the citizens the freedom to, generally, not have to worry about being murdered for no reason/petty reasons.

So, you can see, that based on what theory you ascribe left and right concepts to will determine if you consider anarchists to be leftwing or right wing. The truth is there are ways to come to the same conclusion (that government should be removed/curtailed/abolished) while having completely different reasons for that conclusion.

One of the main ways you can determine the difference between a leftist anarchist and a rightwing anarchist is to ask them why they don't want a central government.

A leftist anarchist would likely respond that they believe it is impossible to eliminate social hierarchies as long as there is a ruling class that can define other people's lives for them.

A right wing anarchist would likely respond that they don't like being told what to do and don't think they should be required/forced to pay taxes (especially social welfare program taxes) for "lazy" people who don't "pull their weight" in society.

To prevent confusion, a lot of people call rightwing anarchists "Anarcho-capitalists," as they generally believe in Laissez-Faire Capitalism where there are no regulations on how you make money. Kind of like the opposite of Socialism, where every industry is privately owned and all decisions are made based on profit and self-interest rather than any moral or ethical standard. 

This group seems to fall under the latter group, considering this occurred during a time of lockdowns and the government "telling people" to stay inside and wear masks.

The "You don't own me" line definitely reinforces this.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-10-2021, 11:14 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Libertarians and objectivists (the ones who believe "tax is theft") generally consider themselves conservative.

I'm at work so I'll try to get to the rest of your post here shortly. (I saw Dill's as well and will do the same) Perhaps I didn't do the best job in getting my point across, or perhaps we're just getting off track. 

My main point was that I don't think you can attach a group like this to a candidate or a recent platform.  While there may be some individuals in these groups that would vote over one candidate or another (lesser of two evils in their minds), I don't think their views (Antifa or Wolverine Watchman) sync up with either party.  These guys (Watchamn) are MAGA types as much as Antifa are Biden Bros (I just made this up to give a desciption).  They're each their own batshit crazy thing, that we should be very careful linking to a larger group.

As far as your post above, I'd be curious to hear what you think of this.  I'm linking the libertarian subreddit, and I pre-sorted it by top posts over the last year.  You don't have to click on any of the topics, unless you really want to, but just scroll down the page and tell me if they appear more conservative or liberal.   And if they appear to be neither, I can tell you from time seeing their topics one the main page, they HATE Donald Trump and they HATE cops.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/top/?t=year

Fwiw, I understand there's different types of "libertarians" but I think this could be interesting.  Also, I'm pretty sure the groups spoken about above, along with Annonymous and that Boogaloo BS all came from 4chan, which is some next level shit.  Same site that decided for fun if they could trick people into thinking the "ok symbol" is a white supremecy sign.  And what started as a joke, got some legs, and now who knows what it exactly is.

[CJD]

(06-10-2021, 11:46 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm at work so I'll try to get to the rest of your post here shortly. (I saw Dill's as well and will do the same) Perhaps I didn't do the best job in getting my point across, or perhaps we're just getting off track. 

My main point was that I don't think you can attach a group like this to a candidate or a recent platform.  While there may be some individuals in these groups that would vote over one candidate or another (lesser of two evils in their minds), I don't think their views (Antifa or Wolverine Watchman) sync up with either party.  These guys (Watchamn) are MAGA types as much as Antifa are Biden Bros (I just made this up to give a desciption).  They're each their own batshit crazy thing, that we should be very careful linking to a larger group.

As far as your post above, I'd be curious to hear what you think of this.  I'm linking the libertarian subreddit, and I pre-sorted it by top posts over the last year.  You don't have to click on any of the topics, unless you really want to, but just scroll down the page and tell me if they appear more conservative or liberal.   And if they appear to be neither, I can tell you from time seeing their topics one the main page, they HATE Donald Trump and they HATE cops.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/top/?t=year

Fwiw, I understand there's different types of "libertarians" but I think this could be interesting.  Also, I'm pretty sure the groups spoken about above, along with Annonymous and that Boogaloo BS all came from 4chan, which is some next level shit.  Same site that decided for fun if they could trick people into thinking the "ok symbol" is a white supremecy sign.  And what started as a joke, got some legs, and now who knows what it exactly is.

My heart swells seeing the headlines of those posts. Maybe I should be rooting for the Libertarians to rise up and take over the GOP.

Of course, Reddit is a disproportionately left wing social media site (I know many people think they all are left wing, but Reddit is beyond even that), so I wonder if those were just upvoted by leftists to get them to the top of the subreddit or, maybe, the reddit was taken over by leftists at some point. There was a recent situation where a subreddit called Tankiejerk was taken over by tankie moderators (tankies are authoritarian apologists for "left-wing" states like China and Soviet Russia. They identify as leftwing, but many leftists question their viability as leftists considering the amount of genocide they're willing to ignore/defend/deny). They did it with an anarchist subreddit about a year ago too.

But if these are the actual stances that libertarians hold, then there's hope for them yet!

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-09-2021, 11:09 PM)samhain Wrote: I'll take the militia members over that MAGA group any day, although most of them are probably ride or die Trumpers.  At least militia members have consistent principles and justifications.  They hate the gubmint plain and simple, and nothing will make them trust anything the Federal branch does.  

MAGA types are far worse.  They have, uh, let's say "loose" principles when it comes to any policy other than getting rid of all the Mexicans ASAP.  They're basically just Mr Garrison from South Park given life and in huge numbers.  Other than that, their only beliefs are whatever comes out of DJT's mouth at any given moment.  It could be something they despised their entire life, but if it Trump tells them it's legit MAGA, they'll die for it.  MAGA conservatives are not a policy-oriented bunch.  They are honestly just a fan club that has sadly been given a ton of political power.  

Honestly. we've had oddball gun collectors and militia types basically forever in this country.  It's rare that actually they do anything outside of standing around and totally not threatening anyone at all with long guns in public places during politically charged events.  It only took MAGA being around 4 years to invade the actual capitol.    Looks like the militia guys need to step up their game, lol.

I'd love to really explore what you think is a "maga type" and who exactly you're referring to when you say a "middling" amount of his supporters would like to send people to camps, incinerate people, and would be totally ok with deaths if they were strangers, and many even with family and friends.

Off the top of my head, I think Trump got around 70 million votes.  What percentage of those votes would say fit your description?

Are all MAGA people the same?  And what is a MAGA person exactly?  Is it simply someone who voted for him?  Is it someone who had a Trump sticker on their car and/or a sign in their yard?  Is it someone who gathered on the side of the road in a large group with signs?  Is it reserved for those that attended the rallys?  Is it smaller pockets of all the above?  Or is it just the miniscule amount that showed up on January 6th?

I think some of these answers may be helpful for me to understand your position.  Because quite honestly, your post earlier came across as incredibly offensive and, to be honest, a little bit scary.  I'm not sure this one is fairing better in my mind either.

I really hope (if you answer this) that I'll get something like "less than 1% of the 70 million votes are who I was talking about".  Because if you think there's millions upon millions of people in this country that would be ok with what you've previously stated, and they're all indivudually worse than the those individiuals that made up small anarchist group that tried to kidnap the governor, then I think these last 4 years may have broken your brain.  And it's depressing (seriously) to think that this country is now this divided.

I will add this as well; taking the worst of the worst and applying it to larger group is incredibly dangerous.  It would be ridiculous for me to say that everyone that is a part of BLM, or has marched or protested with BLM can be diredtly associated with the worst behaviors seen at these events.  I would think it would only be fair to extend the same logic to the MAGA types.  When you're talking about groups this large you're going to get an array of personalites, both good and bad.  Liberal thinking used to support this logic and I hope most still do.  You can't pick and choose when to use a broad brush.

[Dill]

(06-10-2021, 11:14 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Libertarians and objectivists (the ones who believe "tax is theft") generally consider themselves conservative. "Don't tread on me" etc etc. It isn't entirely consistent with other conservatives, especially those who have idolized Trump, the head of the state, to the extent that MAGA folks have, but there are different ways to define rightwing vs leftwing.

There are a few different theories on what defines left vs right. Most leftists believe the metric is "egalitarianism vs hierarchies" (socialism/communism/anarchism being 100% egalitarian, with fascism/monarchy/dictatorship being 100% hierarchy) and that is how they define what is left and what is right. Anything that encourages equality or equal rights for all people would be a left wing concept, for example. That's why you see leftists claiming the abolition of slavery and the civil rights acts as left wing movements.

The other way to categorize the two sides is "more freedom vs less freedom." This is what most right wing anarchists ascribe to. They believe that anything the government does removes freedom. Regulations on business removes freedom. Mandates from the government removes freedom. Taxes remove freedom. etc etc. Police would also fall under that umbrella, making a right wing anarchist's hatred of police be consistent with their ideology despite being against the "law and order" concept from most right wingers. 

They want to do what they want, when they want and they don't want the government trying to stop them. Of course, this theory only considers positive freedoms. It completely ignores negative freedoms, such as a law from the government that outlaws murder. Despite being a mandate from the government, that law doesn't remove freedom from its citizens (unless that citizen wants to go murder people, of course). It universally gives the citizens the freedom to, generally, not have to worry about being murdered for no reason/petty reasons.

So, you can see, that based on what theory you ascribe left and right concepts to will determine if you consider anarchists to be leftwing or right wing. The truth is there are ways to come to the same conclusion (that government should be removed/curtailed/abolished) while having completely different reasons for that conclusion.

One of the main ways you can determine the difference between a leftist anarchist and a rightwing anarchist is to ask them why they don't want a central government.

A leftist anarchist would likely respond that they believe it is impossible to eliminate social hierarchies as long as there is a ruling class that can define other people's lives for them.

A right wing anarchist would likely respond that they don't like being told what to do and don't think they should be required/forced to pay taxes (especially social welfare program taxes) for "lazy" people who don't "pull their weight" in society.

To prevent confusion, a lot of people call rightwing anarchists "Anarcho-capitalists," as they generally believe in Laissez-Faire Capitalism where there are no regulations on how you make money. Kind of like the opposite of Socialism, where every industry is privately owned and all decisions are made based on profit and self-interest rather than any moral or ethical standard. 

This group seems to fall under the latter group, considering this occurred during a time of lockdowns and the government "telling people" to stay inside and wear masks.

The "You don't own me" line definitely reinforces this.

Well said. Better than well said. Just excellent.

Just to reinforce your point about defining the political spectrum via attitude towards "hierarchies," the terms "right" and "left" originated during the French Revolution, when the representatives of social hierarchy and traditional order (aristocracy and the Church) sat in the National Assembly on the RIGHT side of the speaker's dais, and the commoners and leveling radicals (like the Jacobins) sat on the LEFT. 

In the U.S. where have had no feudal class distinctions, classical liberalism, often fused with social conservatism, has come to mean "traditional order," forming the U.S. "right." We don't have much of a "left" to speak of in the U.S., if by that we understand what the rest of the world calls "left."  We do have a lot of "social liberals" who now catch the label.  

Good breakdown of "anarchism" as well. Capitalist libertarian "anarchists" like Murray Rothbard assumed that if every human interaction could be reduced to or transformed into market exchange, and regulated by supply and demand, eventually no government would be needed at all. That's very different from, say, a Marxist who believes that government will not be needed when class power is eliminated. 

And yes, the right wing "anarchy" of the militias in question is more about "nobody can tell me wut to do--NOBODY--cuz it says right there in the Declaration and the Bible!"  Police tell us what to do ("Sir, you can't park there") and so they are naturally the face of that enslaving system we call "Guvmint." 

[Dill]

(06-10-2021, 11:46 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm at work so I'll try to get to the rest of your post here shortly. (I saw Dill's as well and will do the same) Perhaps I didn't do the best job in getting my point across, or perhaps we're just getting off track. 

My main point was that I don't think you can attach a group like this to a candidate or a recent platform.  While there may be some individuals in these groups that would vote over one candidate or another (lesser of two evils in their minds), I don't think their views (Antifa or Wolverine Watchman) sync up with either party.  These guys (Watchamn) are MAGA types as much as Antifa are Biden Bros (I just made this up to give a desciption).  They're each their own batshit crazy thing, that we should be very careful linking to a larger group.

I take your point in the bolded, or at least we ought to be careful to assign degrees of attachment/agreement/support/sympathy whatever.

Someone who thinks Trump is part of the enslaving system is not MAGA. 

But Michigan militias of various stripes do seem to come from a similar political reading of the U.S. as many MAGA supporters, share the same values, concerns, and enemies--i.e., "the left."  Nurtured in a right wing 2A culture which defines gun control as "tyranny," an underdeveloped conception of freedom and state control which RWM has now successfully linked to COVID preventative measures as well, we should not be surprised to find considerable ideological overlap between the WW and the violent Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol.

Better, I think, to analyze or study these groups in terms of what they take to be driving their political activity.  Both ANTIFA and garden variety liberals share an antipathy for Fascism and authoritarianism in general, in part because they desire a non-racist society, but they disagree as to where violent protest becomes necessary or acceptable. ANTIFA adherents insist that "fascism" has to be opposed directly, physically, when its representatives appear in the streets, and made to pay a cost for their efforts to create a movement.  The dangers of fascism are so great that violent means are countenanced by some ANTIFA, though generally not by garden-variety liberals, who think street violence is itself a tactic of fascism. For sure they don't incite riots chanting "Biden, Biden, Biden!" 

So for me the question is more about causes and influences. That's what we want to understand. 

[Dill]

(06-10-2021, 12:05 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'd love to really explore what you think is a "maga type" and who exactly you're referring to when you say a "middling" amount of his supporters would like to send people to camps, incinerate people, and would be totally ok with deaths if they were strangers, and many even with family and friends.

Off the top of my head, I think Trump got around 70 million votes.  What percentage of those votes would say fit your description?

Are all MAGA people the same?  And what is a MAGA person exactly?  Is it simply someone who voted for him?  Is it someone who had a Trump sticker on their car and/or a sign in their yard?  Is it someone who gathered on the side of the road in a large group with signs?  Is it reserved for those that attended the rallys?  Is it smaller pockets of all the above?  Or is it just the miniscule amount that showed up on January 6th?

My response here is to you and Samhain both.

We had a discussion about how representative the Capitol rioters were a couple months back.  My conclusion was that there might be 100,000 or so, collected from all 50 states, if you include their hangers on and people who MIGHT be psyched to act if everyone around them is too. 

So while I argue that a great threat to democracy continues emanating from the Trump camp, I maintain that it is not really coming from the MAGA-hatted oath-keeper with zip ties on his belt and a can of bear spray. 

Rather we ought to be much more concerned about the business-suited party operatives in potential swing states perfecting the art of the pre-election voter purge and pushing legislation to give Republican legislatures and officials more direct power to question/alter election results. This and the RWM which amplifies support for such actions, in part by celebrating these "patriots" and in part by refusing to challenge, and even continuing to affirm, the Big Lie. Trump's power--and theirs--disappears when the Big Lie disappears.

They are setting the stage for election disruption, "questions" about election integrity that must finally be determined by REPUBLICAN state legislatures or REPUBLICAN secretaries of state, i.e., officials who can be "trusted" to do the right thing, as Georgia's Secretary of State could not. 

And it is not 100,000 people supporting this behavior, but millions. As tens of millions may disagree and think something is wrong, but aren't up to challenging it. Still far more worried about AOC and "leftists."

[samhain]

(06-10-2021, 12:05 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'd love to really explore what you think is a "maga type" and who exactly you're referring to when you say a "middling" amount of his supporters would like to send people to camps, incinerate people, and would be totally ok with deaths if they were strangers, and many even with family and friends.

Off the top of my head, I think Trump got around 70 million votes.  What percentage of those votes would say fit your description?

Are all MAGA people the same?  And what is a MAGA person exactly?  Is it simply someone who voted for him?  Is it someone who had a Trump sticker on their car and/or a sign in their yard?  Is it someone who gathered on the side of the road in a large group with signs?  Is it reserved for those that attended the rallys?  Is it smaller pockets of all the above?  Or is it just the miniscule amount that showed up on January 6th?

I think some of these answers may be helpful for me to understand your position.  Because quite honestly, your post earlier came across as incredibly offensive and, to be honest, a little bit scary.  I'm not sure this one is fairing better in my mind either.

I really hope (if you answer this) that I'll get something like "less than 1% of the 70 million votes are who I was talking about".  Because if you think there's millions upon millions of people in this country that would be ok with what you've previously stated, and they're all indivudually worse than the those individiuals that made up small anarchist group that tried to kidnap the governor, then I think these last 4 years may have broken your brain.  And it's depressing (seriously) to think that this country is now this divided.

I will add this as well; taking the worst of the worst and applying it to larger group is incredibly dangerous.  It would be ridiculous for me to say that everyone that is a part of BLM, or has marched or protested with BLM can be diredtly associated with the worst behaviors seen at these events.  I would think it would only be fair to extend the same logic to the MAGA types.  When you're talking about groups this large you're going to get an array of personalites, both good and bad.  Liberal thinking used to support this logic and I hope most still do.  You can't pick and choose when to use a broad brush.

Happy to help.  Any person who believes that the 2020 election was stolen qualifies. Statistically, that's the majority of Republicans right there..  Any Qanon follower absolutely qualifies.  Anyone who turned on McConnell, ie the biggest contributor to Republican power in modern history, when he spoke out against Trump qualifies.  Basically it's anyone who started out being a Republican in 2015 or so and somewhere in between decided that being a fan of Trump was more important than party platform.  

Fact is, the great majority of my friends and co-workers are indeed MAGA types.  Much of my opinion is based on shit that they say freely around people they trust.  The Qanon movement is particularly disturbing, as I can name at least 4 people who are hardcore believers that I never would have predicted with unlimited guesses.  These people literally believe that Tom Hanks and Oprah Winfrey are harvesting baby brains to get high off of them during orgies.  

Perhaps my problem has more to do with my previous inability to imagine how far gone people could get in this country.  It's like in a year, everything I saw as impossible civilly in our society became possible.  

If DJT can order his followers, and as you said a small group of them, to take the US capitol then walk away as they actually try to do it, then what prevents him from ordering them to be violent against political adversaries who don't happen to be government officials?  Better yet, what prevents the people he orders to do it from acting on them?  The oddest thing to me is that the entire party (well, not Liz Cheney, lol) is spending more time acting like it never happened in order to allow a beaten candidate to remain in power and set the agenda in the GOP until he decides he doesn't want to.  

You're right about it being sad.  There are friends I once had, including even the roommate that introduced me to my wife, that I will not deal with anymore.  Another of my best friends from college falls into the category.  Like brothers at some point.  I never fought with them or yelled at them, they're just dead to me.  They are not the people I thought they were plain and simple. My mom voted for him, but snapped out of it during the pandemic when he was telling people to drink fish tank cleaner and bleach. I never argue with her about politics, but hearing her call him a stupid asshole was a relieving moment for me. Oddly, I respect more of the hardcore righties that I knew before the MAGA thing began.  Many of my 2A gun collector friends hated him just as much as any government official.  I can respect consistency.  I have a corporate accountant brother in-law that I argued with about Obama (he hated him) for 9 years.  He's left his party and his church, both because of Trump's influence there.  

It's almost as if before Trump you had a hard right in America that was something different.  They wanted lower taxes, less regulation, gun rights, individual freedom, and the prospect of blowing shit up in third world countries.  Then you had people in the middle who could vote either way and had varying policy views, but were conservative cumulatively.  Maybe they smoked weed or favored gay rights.  Maybe they were against they war.  They were the cool conservatives who you could have good discussions with.  Here's the messed up thing:  those are the ones that bought in to the worship of the figurehead reality show host.  They are the ones joining Qanon and they are the ones who are more populist than conservative.  Now hard right is less about right wing policy and more about doing whatever Trump told them was patriotic.  

As for the question about the MAGA types vs the militias, my view was already explained.  Trump's followers, politically, anyway, have existed for maybe 6 years.  Miitias have existed since the nation was born.  They've had a lot more time to do crazy shit than the Trumpers, but generally have sparse incursions on civil society.  What will the people who believe the 2020 election robbed them of their god-given right to elect Trump to be their leader be doing in 20 years?  What will the people who wantonly call political adversaries pedophiles and child-killers be doing in 20 years?  My guess is it won't be finger painting.  It's going to get even worse as the long promised "browning" of America inevitably advances and they begin to view white culture as under threat from various cultures that aren't theirs.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-07-2021, 04:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Create a modern day version of what England did with Australia and just send them all there.

Build a wall (hear me out)  around North Dakota and round up every Antifa and Qanon ******* and put them in there.  Then clear out a sizeable portion of the prison system, those that facing 40+ year sentences and throw them in the mix too.  Someone gets sentenced to death?  Not anymore they don't.  They get sentenced to North Dakota.  Someone tweets about Pizzagate?  North Dakota.  Someone wearing all black with a megaphone, umbrella, and a brick.  North Dakota.