Afghanistan

[BmorePat87]

(08-24-2021, 08:40 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Well I mean, Biden is literally doing that right now though isn't he?

To aid in the exit, not to reverse the exit. His post implies that he believes Biden should have canceled the exit because of the Taliban. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(08-24-2021, 08:59 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: To aid in the exit, not to reverse the exit. His post implies that he believes Biden should have canceled the exit because of the Taliban. 

But to be fair, it has been suggested that that's what would have happened under Trump isn't it? Or am I mistaken?

From what I've read, the difference between Trump's plan and Biden's plan was that Trump's exit was conditional and required restraint from the Taliban, which in part included not going after those who helped us.  This was even reported last year, way before we got to where we are now. While it's true that Trump reduced our amount of forces operating in Afghanistan, the remaining 2,500 were not gong to be completely withdrawn unless the conditions set by the Trump administration were met.

On April 14th this year, Biden announced that he would be revising Trump's withdrawal date to a later date (which is now). But it has been reported that while Biden moved Trump's withdrawal date back, he didn't bring the conditions for the withdrawal with it that Trump intended, which gave the Taliban more control over the situation.

[BmorePat87]

(08-24-2021, 09:41 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But to be fair, it has been suggested that that's what would have happened under Trump isn't it? Or am I mistaken?

From what I've read, the difference between Trump's plan and Biden's plan was that Trump's exit was conditional and required restraint from the Taliban, which in part included not going after those who helped us.  This was even reported last year, way before we got to where we are now. While it's true that Trump reduced our amount of forces operating in Afghanistan, the remaining 2,500 were not gong to be completely withdrawn unless the conditions set by the Trump administration were met.

On April 14th this year, Biden announced that he would be revising Trump's withdrawal date to a later date (which is now). But it has been reported that while Biden moved Trump's withdrawal date back, he didn't bring the conditions for the withdrawal with it that Trump intended, which gave the Taliban more control over the situation.

Just to be clear, this is Trump's plan. He did not wait for the Taliban to meet the agreed upon conditions and removed 80% of our troops in 10 months. He was publicly calling for his May exit date of 2,500 to be met and then bragged as recently as late June that the exit was occurring and Biden could not stop it. 

There's nothing to suggest that he would have demanded conditions be met when that was not a factor during the mass exit over his last 10 months. 

[*Nately120*]

Can you imagine going back to 9\11 and telling people we were going to resolve things in about 20 years through the combined leadership of Donald Trump and that guy who failed to get the 88 nomination over Michael Dukakis? Holy crap.

[Matt_Crimson]

(08-24-2021, 10:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Just to be clear, this is Trump's plan. He did not wait for the Taliban to meet the agreed upon conditions and removed 80% of our troops in 10 months. He was publicly calling for his May exit date of 2,500 to be met and then bragged as recently as late June that the exit was occurring and Biden could not stop it. 

There's nothing to suggest that he would have demanded conditions be met when that was not a factor during the mass exit over his last 10 months. 

This isn't Trumps plan though. Biden met with advisors on this and they devised a plan for withdrawal. I understand that Trump initiated a deal with the Taliban, but the logistics of when and how we withdrew was layed out by Biden and his advisors. 

Biden not only pushed the date back, but also has now sent more troops to aid in the withdrawal. And this is still "because Trump"?

[BFritz21]

(08-24-2021, 09:41 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But to be fair, it has been suggested that that's what would have happened under Trump isn't it? Or am I mistaken?

From what I've read, the difference between Trump's plan and Biden's plan was that Trump's exit was conditional and required restraint from the Taliban, which in part included not going after those who helped us.  This was even reported last year, way before we got to where we are now. While it's true that Trump reduced our amount of forces operating in Afghanistan, the remaining 2,500 were not gong to be completely withdrawn unless the conditions set by the Trump administration were met.

On April 14th this year, Biden announced that he would be revising Trump's withdrawal date to a later date (which is now). But it has been reported that while Biden moved Trump's withdrawal date back, he didn't bring the conditions for the withdrawal with it that Trump intended, which gave the Taliban more control over the situation.

(08-24-2021, 11:30 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: This isn't Trumps plan though. Biden met with advisors on this and they devised a plan for withdrawal. I understand that Trump initiated a deal with the Taliban, but the logistics of when and how we withdrew was layed out by Biden and his advisors. 

Biden not only pushed the date back, but also has now sent more troops to aid in the withdrawal. And this is still "because Trump"?

[Belsnickel]

I find it interesting how we have two camps. We have the "it's all Biden's fault and Trump would've been better" and the "every president from G.W. Bush to Biden has blame in this," yet because the first camp continually tries to hold Trump blameless, it makes it appear the second camp is really defending Biden's actions.

It's an interesting sociological study.

[HarleyDog]

(08-24-2021, 11:30 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: This isn't Trumps plan though. Biden met with advisors on this and they devised a plan for withdrawal. I understand that Trump initiated a deal with the Taliban, but the logistics of when and how we withdrew was layed out by Biden and his advisors. 

Biden not only pushed the date back, but also has now sent more troops to aid in the withdrawal. And this is still "because Trump"?

Everything going forward is going to be Trumps fault. Although, it has been refreshing to see some of the media take the blinders off and start reporting the truth about what’s happening in Afghanistan. Then again, there’s no hiding (although some still are trying) this disaster, so I’ll give that the credit it’s due.

[BmorePat87]

(08-24-2021, 11:30 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: This isn't Trumps plan though. Biden met with advisors on this and they devised a plan for withdrawal. I understand that Trump initiated a deal with the Taliban, but the logistics of when and how we withdrew was layed out by Biden and his advisors. 

Biden not only pushed the date back, but also has now sent more troops to aid in the withdrawal. And this is still "because Trump"?

This absolutely is Trump's plan. Biden pushed back the timeline on removing those final troops, but as has been repeated multiple times, 80% of the withdrawal occurred during Trump's final 10 months and he did not wait for the Taliban to meet the conditions laid out in the Doha agreement. He cut and ran. He wanted to be the president who got us out of Afghanistan, that's why he didn't want to wait for the Taliban to hold up their end and was attempting to take complete ownership of this for the last 7 months.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-24-2021, 10:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Can you imagine going back to 9\11 and telling people we were going to resolve things in about 20 years through the combined leadership of Donald Trump and that guy who failed to get the 88 nomination over Michael Dukakis?  Holy crap.

I'll add: Imagine telling them we're going to elect a black president in back-to-back elections, he'll win easily in both, he'll set the record for total votes, and somehow race relations will be worse when he leaves office then they were prior to him being elected.

[BmorePat87]

(08-25-2021, 07:34 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Everything going forward is going to be Trumps fault. Although, it has been refreshing to see some of the media take the blinders off and start reporting the truth about what’s happening in Afghanistan. Then again, there’s no hiding (although some still are trying) this disaster, so I’ll give that the credit it’s due.

Are you refuting the fact that the Doha agreement was the product of the Trump administration and that Trump removed 80% of our forces in his final 10 months?

[BmorePat87]

(08-25-2021, 09:16 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'll add: Imagine telling them we're going to elect a black president in back-to-back elections, he'll win easily in both, he'll set the record for total votes, and somehow race relations will be worse when he leaves office then they were prior to him being elected.

Is it really surprising that the election of a Black man would spark a movement in which white voters rally behind a man who spent those 8 years claiming our first Black president was born in Africa or that white nationalist groups would expand their recruiting efforts?

[BmorePat87]

(08-25-2021, 07:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I find it interesting how we have two camps. We have the "it's all Biden's fault and Trump would've been better" and the "every president from G.W. Bush to Biden has blame in this," yet because the first camp continually tries to hold Trump blameless, it makes it appear the second camp is really defending Biden's actions.

It's an interesting sociological study.

I mean, they were the same people you were responding to 4 years ago who sought to give the sitting president all credit for the economy 2 months into his presidency while they refused to acknowledge that the economy had been expanding for years. I believe you tried to take an approach of "the president is far less responsible for these metrics than you're trying to suggest, especially this early on". 

[Goalpost]

Biden's polling is suffering. It's not about whether we should have withdrawn. Majority of Americans wanted to. It's Biden's own performance in this, reflective in the polls.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

[Belsnickel]

(08-25-2021, 10:02 AM)Goalpost Wrote: Biden's polling is suffering. It's not about whether we should have withdrawn. Majority of Americans wanted to. It's Biden's own performance in this, reflective in the polls.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

Oh, no doubt. This is one of those things where Americans don't have a very long-term memory for politics. The guy in office at the moment gets the blame. He absolutely get some blame, because the planning was piss-poor and he could have delayed things to do it better, but this was inevitable because of 20 years of shitty decisions. Now the calculation is that this has happened early enough in the term that they can overcome it before 2024. That's what they're banking on.

[*Nately120*]

(08-25-2021, 10:34 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Oh, no doubt. This is one of those things where Americans don't have a very long-term memory for politics. The guy in office at the moment gets the blame. He absolutely get some blame, because the planning was piss-poor and he could have delayed things to do it better, but this was inevitable because of 20 years of shitty decisions. Now the calculation is that this has happened early enough in the term that they can overcome it before 2024. That's what they're banking on.

Yep. The odds of Americans being able to give a crap for 3 years about the people in another country is pretty slim.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-25-2021, 10:42 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Yep. The odds of Americans being able to give a crap for 3 years about the people in another country is pretty slim.  

I heard someone bring up the likelihood that some nationalist demagogue sort in the GOP is going to be milking the angle of Afghan refugees to stoke more racial animus. Given the responses from the MAGA crowd online commenting on photos of the refugees, I'd say that it a near certainty for an electoral angle.

[*Nately120*]

(08-25-2021, 10:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I heard someone bring up the likelihood that some nationalist demagogue sort in the GOP is going to be milking the angle of Afghan refugees to stoke more racial animus. Given the responses from the MAGA crowd online commenting on photos of the refugees, I'd say that it a near certainty for an electoral angle.

Oh, I"m sure...I mean, it won't really jive with their "America first" and culture war BS, but they'll bring up any chestnut that makes the other side look bad.

Fun side note, I go to a small, old white country folk church with my my wife every sunday and the weekly prayer was basically:

Dear god, please let us help those suffering people in Afghanistan who just want out of a bad situation, and also protect us from the dangerous refugees who keep trying to invade from Mexico.

How long until the "if 1% of M&Ms in a bowl were poisoned, would you take a handful?" meme starts making the rounds again?  

[Matt_Crimson]

(08-25-2021, 09:14 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This absolutely is Trump's plan. Biden pushed back the timeline on removing those final troops, but as has been repeated multiple times, 80% of the withdrawal occurred during Trump's final 10 months and he did not wait for the Taliban to meet the conditions laid out in the Doha agreement. He cut and ran. He wanted to be the president who got us out of Afghanistan, that's why he didn't want to wait for the Taliban to hold up their end and was attempting to take complete ownership of this for the last 7 months.

But it seems like you're missing my point that complete withdrawal wouldn't have happened without conditions being met according to Trumps own advisors.

They didn't say no withdrawal whatsoever wouldn't happen. Trump removing 80% of our troops is beside the point being made here.

[*Nately120*]

(08-25-2021, 12:47 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But it seems like you're missing my point that complete withdrawal wouldn't have happened without conditions being met according to Trumps own advisors.

They didn't say no withdrawal whatsoever wouldn't happen. Trump removing 80% of our troops is beside the point being made here.

But again, even if we accept that Trump's crew had a plan to negotiate with terrorists and get them to agree to things, why did they put it off until after the 2020 election?  Hell, this isn't even about Trump specifically rather it's about the ability politicians have to convince people they have all the answers when they aren't in any position to do anything.

Maybe Trump gets us out of there the right way if we stuck with him in 2021, maybe Andy Dalton wins the SB for the Bengals in 2020 if we hadn't ditched him for Joe Burrow.  My eyes tell me, not so much...but I can't prove it wouldn't have happened.