I Saw Bengals Telegraphing Offense Plays To Jets Defense

[kevin]

A good example of this was The Bengals lined-up and took forever to snap the ball. I could see it was going to be a hand-off to Mixon up the middle, way before ball was snapped. Now if I could see it, then everybody could see it. The Jets were all over Mixon sending him to the bench for injury repairs after he got gang tackled fast.

So one of the problems Bengals may have is that sometimes they go so slow, and line-up, and take so much time to snap the ball, that sometimes everybody can see what play is coming. If Bengals go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on, they will see that they took so long at the line before the snap, that even I could see it was Mixon up the middle before they snapped the ball. I'm not surprised The Jets were right there to hit him so hard, that Mixon had to go to the bench for injury repairs.

I would think Joe Burrow would be better in a faster moving offense that isn't telegraphing the plays. It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but just not as slow as a turtle either. I saw Burrow and Chase in LSU games, and when Burrow gets the hot hand, he likes to speed up and keep the defense huffing and puffing to keep up with him. So a turtle speed offense is not good for a Joe Burrow team.

I'll add on that at LSU, Burrow would get hot and use Chase and others fast. So he likes to hit teams Bang, Bang, Bang with Mixon, Chase, Higgins Boyd, Uzomah so fast that the Defense is huffing and puffing to keep up with all the plays and players coming at them so fast. I just hope The Bengals aren't trying to fit Joe Burrow into the turtle slow moving Bengals offense that has won no play-off games in 30 years. Let Joe Burrow do his thing. It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but some of those plays against the Jets I could see coming 5 to 10 seconds before the ball was snapped, especially the one Mixon got blown up in the backfield on, that took way too long to snap the ball and no wonder Jets were all over it. So maybe instead of asking Burrow and Chase to adapt to all the 30 years of losing of Cincinnati, maybe Bengals could adapt and let Burrow and Chase run their much faster LSU type offense, because Bengals losing is nothing to value or hang on to.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-02-2021, 10:13 AM)kevin Wrote: A good example of this was The Bengals lined-up and took forever to snap the ball. I could see it was a hand-off to Mixon up the middle. Now if I could see it, then everybody could see it. The Jets were all over Mixon sending him to the bench for injury repairs after he got gang tackled fast.

So one of the problems Bengals may have is that sometimes they go so slow, and line-up, and take so much time to snap the ball, that sometimes everybody can see what play is coming. If Bengals go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on, they will see that they took so long at the line before the snap, that even I could see it was Mixon up the middle before they snapped the ball. I'm not surprised The Jets were right there to hit him so hard, that Mixon had to go to the bench for injury repairs.

I would think Joe Burrow would be better in a faster moving offense that isn't telegraphing the plays. It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but just not as slow as a turtle either. I saw Burrow and Chase in LSU games, and when Burrow gets the hot hand, he likes to speed up and keep the defense huffing and puffing to keep up with him. So a turtle speed offense is not good for a Joe Burrow team.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-02-2021, 10:19 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote:

All roads lead to Reynold's Wrap?

[KillerGoose]

(11-02-2021, 10:13 AM)kevin Wrote: A good example of this was The Bengals lined-up and took forever to snap the ball. I could see it was going to be a hand-off to Mixon up the middle, way before ball was snapped. Now if I could see it, then everybody could see it. The Jets were all over Mixon sending him to the bench for injury repairs after he got gang tackled fast.

So one of the problems Bengals may have is that sometimes they go so slow, and line-up, and take so much time to snap the ball, that sometimes everybody can see what play is coming. If Bengals go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on, they will see that they took so long at the line before the snap, that even I could see it was Mixon up the middle before they snapped the ball. I'm not surprised The Jets were right there to hit him so hard, that Mixon had to go to the bench for injury repairs.

I would think Joe Burrow would be better in a faster moving offense that isn't telegraphing the plays. It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but just not as slow as a turtle either. I saw Burrow and Chase in LSU games, and when Burrow gets the hot hand, he likes to speed up and keep the defense huffing and puffing to keep up with him. So a turtle speed offense is not good for a Joe Burrow team.

Cincinnati snaps the ball with an average of 7.47 seconds on the play-clock, good for 29th in the league. Basically, they are slow rolling. The fastest team in the league (Dallas) snaps it with an average of 10.9 seconds on the play-clock. So, not a huge discrepancy. I don’t think this is affecting things much.

EDIT - Yeah, the NFL average is 8.5 seconds. Cincinnati is a second slower. This is nothing.

[kevin]

(11-02-2021, 10:44 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Cincinnati snaps the ball with an average of 7.47 seconds on the play-clock, good for 29th in the league. Basically, they are slow rolling. The fastest team in the league (Dallas) snaps it with an average of 10.9 seconds on the play-clock. So, not a huge discrepancy. I don’t think this is affecting things much.

EDIT - Yeah, the NFL average is 8.5 seconds. Cincinnati is a second slower. This is nothing.

It is something.  Going super slow got Mixon blown up and sent to the bench.  That Jets QB playing in his first game was working faster, and he was the one that had Bengals Defense huffing and puffing trying to keep up.  You say Bengals are one of the slowest teams in the NFL, but you say it is nothing.  I say it is something and when I can be at home and see what Bengal plays are coming, you know the defense can.  Joe Burrow is better in a Fast Offense and it was a waste to draft Burrow and Chase if the 30 year losing Bengals are going to continue to go at Turtle Speed.  It Is Something.  Bengals are not putting Burrow in the right offense to win if you agree Bengals are one of the slowest offenses in the NFL.  Plus again, they telegraph way too many plays to the defense before the ball is snapped by going so slow. Mixon got blown up for one reason only, the play took too long to snap the ball, and Jets were all over Mixon as he took the hand-off. 

[KillerGoose]

(11-02-2021, 11:08 AM)kevin Wrote: It is something.  Going super slow got Mixon blown up and sent to the bench.  That Jets QB playing in his first game was working faster, and he was the one that had Bengals Defense huffing and puffing trying to keep up.  You say Bengals are one of the slowest teams in the NFL, but you say it is nothing.  I say it is something and when I can be at home and see what Bengal plays are coming, you know the defense can.  Joe Burrow is better in a Fast Offense and it was a waste to draft Burrow and Chase if the 30 year losing Bengals are going to continue to go at Turtle Speed.  It Is Something.  Bengals are not putting Burrow in the right offense to win if you agree Bengals are one of the slowest offenses in the NFL.  Plus again, they telegraph way too many plays to the defense before the ball is snapped by going so slow. Mixon got blown up for one reason only, the play took too long to snap the ball, and Jets were all over Mixon as he took the hand-off. 

The Bengals are one of the slowest teams in the league by fractions of a second. The NFL average is 8.5 seconds and the Bengals are slower than that by one second. One second would take them from 29th to 16th, the differences are minuscule.

There’s nothing there. An extra second isn’t the difference between a play being sniffed out vs a success.

[Au165]

This is pretty high up there on bad threads of the season so far. There is no correlation between time to snap and knowing the play, that makes no sense at all. The real answer is we were running into the teeth of their defense rather than attacking the edge of it where we actually had success.

[*jason*]

I saw the Jets telegraphing plays... Damn near every play I could see Mike White was gonna make a short pass to an RB or Jameson Crowder in space. No adjustment on our part.

[kevin]

(11-02-2021, 11:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is pretty high up there on bad threads of the season so far. There is no correlation between time to snap and knowing the play, that makes no sense at all. The real answer is we were running into the teeth of their defense rather than attacking the edge of it where we actually had success.

I wish The Bengals would look at the play Mixon got blown up on up the middle.  They will see it is not just a second or a split second.  They break the huddle, line up, and then stand there for the longest time, and you can see it is Mixon up the middle, and then they snap it just before delay of game and it is Mixon up the middle, and Jets knock him BANG backwards hard sending him to the bench needing medical attention.  

Now that play was too slow to get going, and it's already been stated on here that Bengals take more time to snap the ball than most NFL teams.  The Bengals may think they are reading the defense, but on many plays against Jets it looked like the Jets defense was reading Bengals slow moving offense.  

I repeat that Joe Burrow and Chase played at LSU in a fast moving offense. It is what Joe Burrow excels at.  They are not getting the most of Joe Burrow if they are not going to go more up tempo style that he is great in. Now with a good lead late, I can see eating the clock, but that was not the case when they took all day and Mixon got blown up for it.  

I wish The Bengals would go back and look at that play Mixon got clobbered on.  They will see that they took so long to snap the ball, they might as well have yelled out to The Jets that it was going to be Mixon Up The Middle. 

[fredtoast]

(11-02-2021, 10:13 AM)kevin Wrote: A good example of this was The Bengals lined-up and took forever to snap the ball.  I could see it was going to be a hand-off to Mixon up the middle, way before ball was snapped.  Now if I could see it, then everybody could see it.  The Jets were all over Mixon sending him to the bench for injury repairs after he got gang tackled fast.  

So one of the problems Bengals may have is that sometimes they go so slow, and line-up, and take so much time to snap the ball, that sometimes everybody can see what play is coming.  If Bengals go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on, they will see that they took so long at the line before the snap, that even I could see it was Mixon up the middle before they snapped the ball.  I'm not surprised The Jets were right there to hit him so hard, that Mixon had to go to the bench for injury repairs.

I would think Joe Burrow would be better in a faster moving offense that isn't telegraphing the plays.  It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but just not as slow as a turtle either.  I saw Burrow and Chase in LSU games, and when Burrow gets the hot hand, he likes to speed up and keep the defense huffing and puffing to keep up with him. So a turtle speed offense is not good for a Joe Burrow team.

I'll add on that at LSU, Burrow would get hot and use Chase and others fast.  So he likes to hit teams Bang, Bang, Bang with Mixon, Chase, Higgins Boyd, Uzomah so fast that the Defense is huffing and puffing to keep up with all the plays and players coming at them so fast.   I just hope The Bengals aren't trying to fit Joe Burrow into the turtle slow moving Bengals offense that has won no play-off games in 30 years.  Let Joe Burrow do his thing.  It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but some of those plays against the Jets I could see coming 5 to 10 seconds before the ball was snapped, especially the one Mixon got blown up in the backfield on, that took way too long to snap the ball and no wonder Jets were all over it.  So maybe instead of asking Burrow and Chase to adapt to all the 30 years of losing of Cincinnati, maybe Bengals could adapt and let Burrow and Chase run their much faster LSU type offense, because Bengals losing is nothing to value or hang on to.

I am calling BS unless you can give me an exact tiem when it is 100% guaranteed to be a run.

I have seen them milk the clock and throw the ball.

So at what point do you know for sure it is going to be a run?

[BengalChris]

I would say that the Jets spent their time wisely in preparation for Sunday's game.

I'm not sure what Zac and his coaches were doing, but quality preparation certainly wasn't one of them.

[kevin]

(11-02-2021, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am calling BS unless you can give me an exact tiem when it is 100% guaranteed to be a run.

I have seen them milk the clock and throw the ball.

So at what point do you know for sure it is going to be a run?

The Bengals need to go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on.  They took so much time at the line, they might as well have just yelled to The Jets that is was going to be Mixon up the middle.  Mixon looked like he ran into a brick wall and had to go to the sidelines.  

My other point is this slow moving style that others have already agreed the Bengals run, does not get the most out of Joe Burrow. Did anybody see Burrow and Chase at LSU.  Burrow gets in a rhythm and runs a play and while defense is still getting up, here come another play, and another play.  Burrow can flat wear a defense down as he hits receivers and hands off runs faster than the defense can get up from the last play. THAT is what Joe Burrow excels at, but Cincinnati Fans aren't seeing it because the 30 years with no play-off win Bengals like to go Turtle Slow.  What Joe Burrow is great at, The Bengals refuse to let him do.  Burrow is great at controlling The Tempo and running play after play before the defense can get ready, that is what he was great at with LSU with Chase and others. 

[KillerGoose]

(11-02-2021, 04:42 PM)kevin Wrote: I wish The Bengals would look at the play Mixon got blown up on up the middle.  They will see it is not just a second or a split second.  They break the huddle, line up, and then stand there for the longest time, and you can see it is Mixon up the middle, and then they snap it just before delay of game and it is Mixon up the middle, and Jets knock him BANG backwards hard sending him to the bench needing medical attention.  

Now that play was too slow to get going, and it's already been stated on here that Bengals take more time to snap the ball than most NFL teams.  The Bengals may think they are reading the defense, but on many plays against Jets it looked like the Jets defense was reading Bengals slow moving offense.  

I repeat that Joe Burrow and Chase played at LSU in a fast moving offense. It is what Joe Burrow excels at.  They are not getting the most of Joe Burrow if they are not going to go more up tempo style that he is great in. Now with a good lead late, I can see eating the clock, but that was not the case when they took all day and Mixon got blown up for it.  

I wish The Bengals would go back and look at that play Mixon got clobbered on.  They will see that they took so long to snap the ball, they might as well have yelled out to The Jets that it was going to be Mixon Up The Middle. 

I've tried telling you that this doesn't matter and Au165 has also told you that there is no correlation. I will put numbers to this now. I am using 15 seconds left on the play clock as my metric for running plays 'fast'. I can change it up, if necessary.

Running plays with play clock having more than 15 seconds to go 


20 carries, 4.0 yards per carry, 0.04 EPA per attempt, 50% success rate

Running plays with play clock having less than 15 seconds to go


175 carries, 4.1 yards per carry, -0.09 EPA per attempt, 38% success rate

Passing plays with play clock having more than 15 seconds to go


27 attempts, 6.85 yards per attempt, 37% success rate, 0.001 EPA per attempt

Passing plays with play clock having less than 15 seconds to go


240 attempts, 8.05 yards per attempt, 51% success rate, 0.22 EPA per attempt


So, the Bengals pass significantly better when the play clock gets low. While rushing with a high play clock might look better, it is only off of 20 attempts. These were likely situational decisions and are not reflective of anything significant. The sample size is too small.

In closing, it doesn't matter. If it did matter, Cincinnati performs better when the play clock gets low.

[Au165]

(11-02-2021, 04:42 PM)kevin Wrote: I wish The Bengals would look at the play Mixon got blown up on up the middle.  They will see it is not just a second or a split second.  They break the huddle, line up, and then stand there for the longest time, and you can see it is Mixon up the middle, and then they snap it just before delay of game and it is Mixon up the middle, and Jets knock him BANG backwards hard sending him to the bench needing medical attention.  

Now that play was too slow to get going, and it's already been stated on here that Bengals take more time to snap the ball than most NFL teams.  The Bengals may think they are reading the defense, but on many plays against Jets it looked like the Jets defense was reading Bengals slow moving offense.  

I repeat that Joe Burrow and Chase played at LSU in a fast moving offense. It is what Joe Burrow excels at.  They are not getting the most of Joe Burrow if they are not going to go more up tempo style that he is great in. Now with a good lead late, I can see eating the clock, but that was not the case when they took all day and Mixon got blown up for it.  

I wish The Bengals would go back and look at that play Mixon got clobbered on.  They will see that they took so long to snap the ball, they might as well have yelled out to The Jets that it was going to be Mixon Up The Middle. 

Again, this is nonsense. Like I don't even know what to say other than this is incoherent gibberish not based in reality at all. I know of 4 plays from the last two weeks that were passes off the top of my head that they snapped the ball at 1 second or as it hit 0. Your theory is wrong, as much as you want to believe it to be true it is not. Nobody needs to go back and "look at the play Mixon got clobbered" because if you know anything about football at a deeper level you know this is nonsense.

Again schematically the issue was running inside where the strength of their ENTIRE ROSTER was, and our weakness, versus getting on the edges using the outside zone which had been effective allowing Mixon to one cut and go. 

[Shake n Blake]

Sheesh people are soooo sensitive to any perceived sleight.

I don't know if there's anything to what Kevin is saying or not, but thus far, the only evidence presented (Bengals being 29th in time to snap) seems to help Kevin's case.

1 second on *average* is a bigger deal than yall think. It's not going to be 1 second every time. Sometimes its going to be one second faster than average. Other times, 2-3 seconds slower...and when we're talking about NFL defenders, an extra few seconds may help them diagnose some plays.

Let me just ask this: What was the point of the sugar huddle? Ok...now if we're the opposite of that, wouldn't it stand to reason that more plays could be diagnosed?

Can we have one discussion without getting offended? I think its an intriguing question, and maybe instead of arguing about it, we can have an intelligent discussion and get to the bottom of this? One can dream.

[Au165]

(11-02-2021, 05:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sheesh people are soooo sensitive to any perceived sleight.

I don't know if there's anything to what Kevin is saying or not, but thus far, the only evidence presented (Bengals being 29th in time to snap) seems to help Kevin's case.

1 second on *average* is a bigger deal than yall think. It's not going to be 1 second every time. Sometimes its going to be one second faster than average. Other times, 2-3 seconds slower...and when we're talking about NFL defenders, an extra few seconds may help them diagnose some plays.

Let me just ask this: What was the point of the sugar huddle? Ok...now if we're the opposite of that, wouldn't it stand to reason that more plays could be diagnosed?

Can we have one discussion without getting offended? I think its an intriguing question, and maybe instead of arguing about it, we can have an intelligent discussion and get to the bottom of this? One can dream.

It's not about being offended, it's about his "observation" not being based in any sort of football backed reality. The speed at which a play is called does not give away the play call which was his initial premise that then kind of devolved into deciding we needed to move faster for productivity. While one can appreciate the change of pace form time to time can yield positive results, the slower pace is not any indicator of pass or "run up the middle with Mixon" as Kevin has proposed.

I enjoy coming here to talk football but the reality is most people here know nothing about football beyond cursory knowledge and what they think. The complexities of NFL offenses and defenses is actually astounding and someone saying "heck I knew from my couch" is a level of hubris that is off putting at the least when you realize that person couldn't tell you the blocking scheme the offense was using or the run fits of the defense but he was so sure he knew the play. 

There is a difference of phrasing it "Could this be a tell?" versus telling everyone that it definitively is. One is about being curious and wanting discussion, the other is thinking you know something you know nothing about.

[grampahol]

I think we should all play armchair psychologists here and diagnose all Bengals mental errors.. Was it because their moms made them homosexuals? Maybe all their fathers were.. MAYBE it's because they didn't get that blue bicycle for their 8th birthdays! Maybe their dogs ran away and were replaced by invisible lizard dogs with secret hypnotic powers and could see into the future. When they here they're favored by double digits the lizard dogs make that invisible lizard dog hypnosis thing and they play lousy!  The possibilities are endless here! this thread could go on for years and years!

[Au165]

Just as an FYI, I went back and scanned the game quickly and counted 10 passing plays that were snapped with 6 seconds or less left on the play clock including two TD's and two other passes that were our largest passing gains on the day.

[KillerGoose]

(11-02-2021, 05:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sheesh people are soooo sensitive to any perceived sleight.

I don't know if there's anything to what Kevin is saying or not, but thus far, the only evidence presented (Bengals being 29th in time to snap) seems to help Kevin's case.

1 second on *average* is a bigger deal than yall think. It's not going to be 1 second every time. Sometimes its going to be one second faster than average. Other times, 2-3 seconds slower...and when we're talking about NFL defenders, an extra few seconds may help them diagnose some plays.

Let me just ask this: What was the point of the sugar huddle? Ok...now if we're the opposite of that, wouldn't it stand to reason that more plays could be diagnosed?

Can we have one discussion without getting offended? I think its an intriguing question, and maybe instead of arguing about it, we can have an intelligent discussion and get to the bottom of this? One can dream.

Hey, I'll take a step back and admit that I can definitely come off as a dick. I don't mean to, I'm not trying to brow-beat kevin, but I can understand that I probably am. So, I'm sorry kevin. I'm not trying to be an asshole here (and sorry for being a jerk in general Shake, I know I've gotten red with you). Re-reading that post, I came across pretty aggressive but I wasn't trying to be aggressive. 

I did post data that details the Bengals performance based on seconds left on the play clock. If anything, Cincinnati seems to perform better when the play clock gets low. There isn't anything there to suggest otherwise.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-02-2021, 05:22 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I've tried telling you that this doesn't matter and Au165 has also told you that there is no correlation. I will put numbers to this now. I am using 15 seconds left on the play clock as my metric for running plays 'fast'. I can change it up, if necessary.

Running plays with play clock having more than 15 seconds to go 


20 carries, 4.0 yards per carry, 0.04 EPA per attempt, 50% success rate

Running plays with play clock having less than 15 seconds to go


175 carries, 4.1 yards per carry, -0.09 EPA per attempt, 38% success rate

Passing plays with play clock having more than 15 seconds to go


27 attempts, 6.85 yards per attempt, 37% success rate, 0.001 EPA per attempt

Passing plays with play clock having less than 15 seconds to go


240 attempts, 8.05 yards per attempt, 51% success rate, 0.22 EPA per attempt


So, the Bengals pass significantly better when the play clock gets low. While rushing with a high play clock might look better, it is only off of 20 attempts. These were likely situational decisions and are not reflective of anything significant. The sample size is too small.

In closing, it doesn't matter. If it did matter, Cincinnati performs better when the play clock gets low.

IMO, it would bode better for offense to snap the ball with less time on the clock with the assumption that it gives Burrow more time to read the defense and make any adjustments/audibles as he deems necessary.