Zac Taylor Changed the Culture of Cincinnati Football

[Waite Hoyt]

Something to consider is if Taylor had won more his first year we would not have Burrow.

[KillerGoose]

(12-21-2021, 07:56 PM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: Something to consider is if Taylor had won more his first year we would not have Burrow.

Yep. We likely would have ended up with Herbert, which in hindsight would be a great consolation prize, but I like Burrow better (and this is coming from a huge Ducks fan). 

[Soonerpeace]

(12-21-2021, 07:33 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm overall happy with Taylor and his performance this year but I am very hard pressed to call the AFC North the toughest division in football. It is a division made up middling teams but none of the teams are very good. Last I checked, using SRS, the AFC North was the 5th best division in football. By overall wins, they are good, but taking into account their SOS and margin of victories, they are all middling teams (which lines up with the eye test as well). 

Going into the season Sports Illustrated and Yahoo ranked the AFC North #2 behind the NFC West. It’s a tough division.


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[*rfaulk34*]

(12-20-2021, 10:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Such a negative person, and such a need to spread your misery to everyone else.  Nothing but a disappointment? It's not a disappointment at all. The first part of the schedule was the easiest part of this 6th toughest schedule in the league. Before the season even started when the schedule came out pretty much everyone knew they would need to stockpile wins at the beginning because the schedule got progressively tougher as the season continued. I swear, if they won the Superbowl, you'd find a reason to complain about it.

I don't think some of you are reading it correctly. 

8-6 - 5-2= 3-4 over the last 7. That is certainly dissapointing when those losses include the Jets and the Chargers and 49ers at home. 

8-6 with a chance for the division and #1 or #2 seed isn't disappointing. 

If they drop the next 2 games, i'd venture to guess that there would only be a handful of people that wouldn't be disappointed at 8-8 after a 5-2 start, #1 seed (at the time) and most likely out of the playoffs--considering the relative health of their most important players and how thing fell up to then. 

People can say "at the beginning of the year" all day, but when you start 5-2 and the #1 seed, the bar gets raised. 

[Frank Booth]

(12-22-2021, 12:52 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: People can say "at the beginning of the year" all day, but when you start 5-2 and the #1 seed, the bar gets raised. 

Bingo

[Savagehenry54]

(12-18-2021, 12:49 AM)C0de_M0nkey Wrote: Yes , a lot of us want his head on a platter. But you have to admit that Zac Taylor has done a good job in his first three years. He took a team on life support and started 2-14. After a 1-14 start he almost lost our franchise quarterback by beating Miami, but he just fell short in overtime. As much as we wanted the Bengals to tank, it was clear that coach Taylor wanted the Bengals to win. However, it was clear that he didn’t have the talent nor the coaching experience to do so  that year. Thankfully, he failed and we got our quarterback with the 5th pick of the draft.

2020 was a tough year, but for a lot of Bengals fans it was the most fun in a long time. Despite the weekly losses, there was no denying that it was fun to watch the young, Burrow led team grow.

That is, until Joe Burrow went down with multiple knee injuries against the Washington Football Team. It was at this lint that most of us, myself included, were once again calling for Zach Taylor’s head. How dare he make his franchise QB throw 50+ times in a losing season. We waited a generation for a chance like this and Zac threw it down the drain, literally!

Well that all changed when the 11-2 Steelers came to town in prime time. They were on an 0-2 streak, and this was the game they circled on the calendar to get back in track. This was the rivalry that wasn’t really a rivalry anymore, due to the Steelers’ dominance over the last five years. Most fans forgot that the Bengals ever made the playoffs, so obviously this was an easy win for Pittsburgh, right?

“Hop in a jet like that
Like that
They was like, "Popp, why you walk like that?“

Juju heard, as he caught a pass in the endzone. Oh wait, that was the sound of Von Bell knocking  the ball and the soul out of Juju’s hands. It was at that moment, that fans across the nation asked themselves: “wait, are these the Bengals?” Fans in Cincinnati asked themselves if this was a new day indeed, as the Bengals dominated the Steelers in a 27-17 victory.

Despite the dumpster fire of the 2020 season, Zac Taylor won the biggest game of his career in convincing fashion. And this was the start of a trend against the Steelers. Most of us still wanted him fired, but there was no denying that he may have saved his ass with that whooping of the Steelers.

The lesson to be learned is that we all gave up on Zach Taylor. I personally wanted him to be fired until he beat the Vikings in 2021. I then made a 180 and declared the Bengals a playoff threat. But there was never a doubt about Zac Taylor in the locker room. Even the most ardent in the “fire Zac” camp had to admit that the  team stuck with him at through 2020. We still wanted him fired but there was no denying that he was a good player’s coach.

What was the point of this post? Well, most of us have seen his poor play calling over the course of the season. But few of us have seen his improved play calling  compared to last  year. It’s easy to call Zac out for taking the ball out of Burrow’s hands against the 49ers. But how many of us wanted him to be fired for putting the ball in Burrow’s hands too much last year?

Joe Burrow is a young quarterback, Zac Taylor is a young coach. There is no denying that the culture has changed after three straight blowout wins against the Steelers.

The question is will part 2 of this post be how Zac Taylor changed the franchise for better or for worse? At this point, my bet is for better. None of us expected this team to do anything, yet we’re in the thick of it in the AFC. Zac Taylor has done a good job. Especially due to Ja’marr Chase, possibly the best pick in franchise history.

Love this and agree fully..but ....(grumpy old fart enters the room)....Way back when I was still pissin my pants, we drafted this giant yet somehow still athletic and quick dude outta USC.  He suffered a major knee injury back when trainers still used leeches and moonlighted as dentists....but Paul Brown still picked one of, if not the best LT that ever played the game.  Lawrence Taylor kryptonite, the original prototype for modern era blind side Tackles himself, Senor Anthony Munoz.
So JaMarr has his work cut out for him I guess.  Love Chase, but js.

[Savagehenry54]

(12-21-2021, 07:33 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm overall happy with Taylor and his performance this year but I am very hard pressed to call the AFC North the toughest division in football. It is a division made up middling teams but none of the teams are very good. Last I checked, using SRS, the AFC North was the 5th best division in football. By overall wins, they are good, but taking into account their SOS and margin of victories, they are all middling teams (which lines up with the eye test as well). 

Were you not paying attention when the Ravens, Steelers, Seahawks, Giants and hell even the Colts were winning the Lombardi's that New England didn't the last 20 years?

By the criteria you mention all of those teams are rt there in that same club house.  Dark horse shit.  Defense and a run game go a long way in the playoffs (and yes, the colts defense went bananas the year that Peyton won one in Indy...Bob Sanders in particular played like Jack Tatum used to when somebody owed him money...youtube Jack Tatum, it ain't pretty).

I didn't forget the Packers and Saints....they just dont fit the best side of my argument cuz Rodgers and Brees.  But we got Burrow soooo

[basballguy]

Ok...i'm super late to this thread.....

But Zac Taylor hasn't changed shit.

Joe Burrow on the other hand......he hasn't "changed the culture" either....however he has "injected life" into the franchise...which i think is what you really should be saying....."Joe Burrow injected life into our franchise"

Back to ZT.....and I'll preface this with making sure we know i'm a Marvin Lewis hater.......

Marvin Lewis CHANGED THE CULTURE.....dude couldn't win a playoff game to save his life but he sure as hell showed us what it looked and felt like to be winners.

Zac Taylor has not given us a culture shock yet....he's done a lot of things i like (like 2nd half adjustments...which ML sucked at)....but there has not been a culture change from him.

I don't even know we need a culture change....I think we just need a leader.

[Soonerpeace]

(12-22-2021, 04:26 AM)basballguy Wrote: Ok...i'm super late to this thread.....

But Zac Taylor hasn't changed shit.

Joe Burrow on the other hand......he hasn't "changed the culture" either....however he has "injected life" into the franchise...which i think is what you really should be saying....."Joe Burrow injected life into our franchise"

Back to ZT.....and I'll preface this with making sure we know i'm a Marvin Lewis hater.......

Marvin Lewis CHANGED THE CULTURE.....dude couldn't win a playoff game to save his life but he sure as hell showed us what it looked and felt like to be winners.

Zac Taylor has not given us a culture shock yet....he's done a lot of things i like (like 2nd half adjustments...which ML sucked at)....but there has not been a culture change from him.

I don't even know we need a culture change....I think we just need a leader.

https://www.bengals.com/news/bengals-notebook-uzomah-talks-culture-shock-zac-upbeat-about-injuries-mirror-sta


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[Sled21]

(12-22-2021, 12:52 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't think some of you are reading it correctly. 

8-6 - 5-2= 3-4 over the last 7. That is certainly dissapointing when those losses include the Jets and the Chargers and 49ers at home. 

8-6 with a chance for the division and #1 or #2 seed isn't disappointing. 

If they drop the next 2 games, i'd venture to guess that there would only be a handful of people that wouldn't be disappointed at 8-8 after a 5-2 start, #1 seed (at the time) and most likely out of the playoffs--considering the relative health of their most important players and how thing fell up to then. 

People can say "at the beginning of the year" all day, but when you start 5-2 and the #1 seed, the bar gets raised. 

Again, going into the season, pretty much everyone on this board, including you, knew and commented that the first half of our schedule was easier than the 2nd half. It should not have been a surprise or disappointment to anyone that we would have more wins at the beginning of the season than we would get at the end of the season.  Yes, some of the losses were disappointing because of who they lost to, but some of the wins were fabulous because of who they beat.

[TecmoBengals]

(12-22-2021, 04:26 AM)basballguy Wrote: Ok...i'm super late to this thread.....

But Zac Taylor hasn't changed shit.  

Joe Burrow on the other hand......he hasn't "changed the culture" either....however he has "injected life" into the franchise...which i think is what you really should be saying....."Joe Burrow injected life into our franchise"

Back to ZT.....and I'll preface this with making sure we know i'm a Marvin Lewis hater.......

Marvin Lewis CHANGED THE CULTURE.....dude couldn't win a playoff game to save his life but he sure as hell showed us what it looked and felt like to be winners.  

Zac Taylor has not given us a culture shock yet....he's done a lot of things i like (like 2nd half adjustments...which ML sucked at)....but there has not been a culture change from him.  

I don't even know we need a culture change....I think we just need a leader.

If you're analyzing the scope of Bengals history, your point is understood. The Bengals were a joke of a franchise throughout the entire 1990s and Marvin was part of the change in culture to bring some respectability back to the entire organization. He accomplished this with winning seasons and playoff football, albeit first round losses.

Marvin's final years, however, were marked by losing. People aren't discussing Zac changing the culture in the same context as Marvin, but are rather discussing how Zac worked to stop the losing ways he inherited from Marvin. Zac viewed this as changing the locker room culture to have more professionalism and a solid coach & player rapport, it seems. Marvin changing the franchise culture was more expansive than Zac's changes, but both have made their impact on the Bengals. It was just in different ways.

[Sled21]

(12-22-2021, 10:33 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: If you're analyzing the scope of Bengals history, your point is understood. The Bengals were a joke of a franchise throughout the entire 1990s and Marvin was part of the change in culture to bring some respectability back to the entire organization. He accomplished this with winning seasons and playoff football, albeit first round losses.

Marvin's final years, however, were marked by losing. People aren't discussing Zac changing the culture in the same context as Marvin, but are rather discussing how Zac worked to stop the losing ways he inherited from Marvin. Zac viewed this as changing the locker room culture to have more professionalism and a solid coach & player rapport, it seems. Marvin changing the franchise culture was more expansive than Zac's changes, but both have made their impact on the Bengals. It was just in different ways.

Absolutely Zac changed the culture. While Marvin brought this team out of the misery that was the 90's, his legacy will be of a team that could never seemingly win the big game. They rarely beat Pittsburgh, never won a playoff game, usually fizzled out anytime they had a primetime game. 

[KillerGoose]

(12-22-2021, 03:53 AM)Savagehenry54 Wrote: Were you not paying attention when the Ravens, Steelers, Seahawks, Giants and hell even the Colts were winning the Lombardi's that New England didn't the last 20 years?

By the criteria you mention all of those teams are rt there in that same club house.  Dark horse shit.  Defense and a run game go a long way in the playoffs (and yes, the colts defense went bananas the year that Peyton won one in Indy...Bob Sanders in particular played like Jack Tatum used to when somebody owed him money...youtube Jack Tatum, it ain't pretty).

I didn't forget the Packers and Saints....they just dont fit the best side of my argument cuz Rodgers and Brees.  But we got Burrow soooo

I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to say. You mention "dark horse shit" so I am assuming you're saying that all of these aforementioned teams were also considered middling teams and rated out so by SRS? If so, that's not accurate. Cincinnati currently ranks 14th in the NFL by SRS (best SRS rating in the AFC North). Here are all of the Super Bowl victors since 2005 and their SRS rating...

2020 - Bucs (2nd)

2019 - Chiefs (4th)

2018 - Patriots (9th)

2017 - Eagles (1st)

2016 - Patriots (1st)

2015 - Broncos (9th)

2014 - Patriots (1st)

2013 - Seahawks (1st)

2012 - Ravens (13th)

2011 - Giants (12th)

2010 - Packers (2nd)

2009 - Saints (2nd)

2008 - Steelers (1st)

2007 - Giants (11th)

2006 - Colts (6th)

2005 - Steelers (6th)

So, in the past 16 years, there has been three teams win the Super Bowl that landed outside of the top 10 in SRS, which I think is pretty fair to call them dark horses. You mentioned the Seahawks, Colts and Steelers as well, all of which graded out as either elite or borderline elite teams in their respective season. 

Regarding defense and running game, the defense part is true but not so much with the running game. There is essentially zero relationship to victories and run game performance within the playoffs. I am using last years playoffs as an example here, and I'm aware that the dataset is small but I'm doing this as a quick example before work. I am using YPC as my metric here and I ran a regression on YPC and wins to try to find the relationship. Exactly 0% of the variation in playoff victories last year can be explained by differences in run game performance. You don't need a strong running game to do well in the playoffs, but you do need a strong QB OR at the bare minimum, strong QB performances.

[basballguy]

(12-22-2021, 10:19 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: https://www.bengals.com/news/bengals-notebook-uzomah-talks-culture-shock-zac-upbeat-about-injuries-mirror-sta


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Thanks for the share, but I don't know that article says anything more than "Players in a winning locker room are always happy".  OP was giving a fan perspective on culture which frequently differs from team/player viewpoints.  

[Soonerpeace]

(12-22-2021, 12:50 PM)basballguy Wrote: Thanks for the share, but I don't know that article says anything more than "Players in a winning locker room are always happy".  OP was giving a fan perspective on culture which frequently differs from team/player viewpoints.  

I think a teams mental makeup when they’ve lost a majority of their games for quite awhile need to change that narrative. Part of that is that they enjoy each other and aren’t just playing for contracts. The Bengals team culture has been dramatically changed. Listen to several of the players. They enjoy each other. C J’s comments resonate. They aren’t there yet. I don’t know that they’ve got to the level of “expect to win” but they aren’t anymore at “expect to lose”. When Taylor inherited the team they seriously lacked a winning attitude and were not a team. There’s been a lot more involved in rebuilding this team than the roster.


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[basballguy]

(12-22-2021, 10:33 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: If you're analyzing the scope of Bengals history, your point is understood. The Bengals were a joke of a franchise throughout the entire 1990s and Marvin was part of the change in culture to bring some respectability back to the entire organization. He accomplished this with winning seasons and playoff football, albeit first round losses.

Marvin's final years, however, were marked by losing. People aren't discussing Zac changing the culture in the same context as Marvin, but are rather discussing how Zac worked to stop the losing ways he inherited from Marvin. Zac viewed this as changing the locker room culture to have more professionalism and a solid coach & player rapport, it seems. Marvin changing the franchise culture was more expansive than Zac's changes, but both have made their impact on the Bengals. It was just in different ways.

I apologize in advance if it seems like i'm arguing just to argue.  :)

But, ya I honestly don't think I can give an accurate take on what's going on in the locker room (I'm not following them to that extent anymore).  All I can really say is I would expect any coach to do that when taking over on a team that had multiple losing seasons in a row.  

However I don't really recall anyone ever talking about bad habits, losing ways, unprofessionalism, or anything like that during the ML era...in terms of how players prepared for the games.  I also seem to recall all the players loved ML which always a talking point on the old board.  "Players love ML cause he won't bench them when they're bad!"....things like that.  

JB gave the team a taste of winning and that's what everyone is feeding off of (in my opinion)...now I'd be foolish to say ZT has nothing to do with it but we can't kid ourselves....if we didn't land JB we'd likely be talking about how this was probably ZT's final year.  

When I think back to ML era....it was ML that gave us a taste of winning....if we remember, Palmer didn't even play his first season....it was Kitna....Jon f'n Kitna (love that guy).  

I don't know if I'd take ML or ZT or vice versa yet, but all I can give ZT credit for is his seemingly ability to make second half adjustments....everything else I credit to the players.  

EDIT: I also give ZT huge credit on penalty discipline....I meant to say that too. I do honestly feel like that sort of thing is a credit to the coaching staff.

[grampahol]

If absolutely nothing else goes right for Zac the one ace he'll always hold? His name isn't Urban Meyer..   I will give him some respect for admitting he has called some stupid plays from time to time. Meyer would've blamed everyone, but Meyer.. Hell, he's have blamed the girl in the bar video.. 

[basballguy]

(12-22-2021, 01:00 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I think a teams mental makeup when they’ve lost a majority of their games for quite awhile need to change that narrative. Part of that is that they enjoy each other and aren’t just playing for contracts. The Bengals team culture has been dramatically changed. Listen to several of the players. They enjoy each other. C J’s comments resonate. They aren’t there yet. I don’t know that they’ve got to the level of “expect to win” but they aren’t anymore at “expect to lose”. When Taylor inherited the team they seriously lacked a winning attitude and were not a team. There’s been a lot more involved in rebuilding this team than the roster.

Do you credit ZT or JB for this?  

For me I equate it to a 777 pilot.  They basically fly themselves...ZT is our pilot.  He can make the experience more meaningful doing small things but the plane is doing all the work.  ML was piloting a twin engine prop plane from 1940 when he took over.  (I'm not a plane guy but that's the best i can come up with)

[Soonerpeace]

(12-22-2021, 01:18 PM)basballguy Wrote: Do you credit ZT or JB for this?  

For me I equate it to a 777 pilot.  They basically fly themselves...ZT is our pilot.  He can make the experience more meaningful doing small things but the plane is doing all the work.  ML was piloting a twin engine prop plane from 1940 when he took over.  (I'm not a plane guy but that's the best i can come up with)

Well I don’t think ZT gets enough credit for nurturing Joe. If you listen the Sean McVay talk about ZT as a QB coach and Ryan Tannehill he’s incredible. Some including Joe would say Zac has really bridled him. Zac is going to lose some games for his offensive conservatism but he’s going to keep from losing more of them for being too aggressive. Zac has a great defense and a great kicker.

As far as Joe he’s overtaken Brady as the best PFF grade. Anybody who thinks it’s on his own is silly. Young QB’s get anxious and make mistakes and cost games. Look at Elway and Manning as rookies. The Bengals have lost to the Packers and 49ers in OT. Lost close games to the Jets and Bears.

I think if this team makes the playoffs after what 5-31 the last 2 years? If this turnaround was in a lot of other cities the fan base would be ecstatic.


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[TecmoBengals]

(12-22-2021, 01:06 PM)basballguy Wrote: I apologize in advance if it seems like i'm arguing just to argue.  :)

But, ya I honestly don't think I can give an accurate take on what's going on in the locker room (I'm not following them to that extent anymore).  All I can really say is I would expect any coach to do that when taking over on a team that had multiple losing seasons in a row.  

However I don't really recall anyone ever talking about bad habits, losing ways, unprofessionalism, or anything like that during the ML era...in terms of how players prepared for the games.  I also seem to recall all the players loved ML which always a talking point on the old board.  "Players love ML cause he won't bench them when they're bad!"....things like that.  

JB gave the team a taste of winning and that's what everyone is feeding off of (in my opinion)...now I'd be foolish to say ZT has nothing to do with it but we can't kid ourselves....if we didn't land JB we'd likely be talking about how this was probably ZT's final year.  

When I think back to ML era....it was ML that gave us a taste of winning....if we remember, Palmer didn't even play his first season....it was Kitna....Jon f'n Kitna (love that guy).  

I don't know if I'd take ML or ZT or vice versa yet, but all I can give ZT credit for is his seemingly ability to make second half adjustments....everything else I credit to the players.  

EDIT: I also give ZT huge credit on penalty discipline....I meant to say that too.  I do honestly feel like that sort of thing is a credit to the coaching staff.

No apologies needed. It's cool if people have different opinions. I think we see current players talking about how they like the locker room culture and that is indicative they like Zac. Many of these guys, however, weren't even playing under Lewis. I don't think the framework for discussing the current culture even has a connection to Marvin.  I agree, none of us can give an accurate take on how the locker room culture actually works unless we're directly connected to it.