Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine

[Bengalzona]

(02-25-2022, 01:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Of course he hasn't been innovative. He's an old hand at all of this and his moves are predictable. As for what we could've done to avoid this? Support a referendum for the separatist regions and agree to not add Ukraine to NATO. We tend to overlook our role in creating this problem. Don't get me wrong, Putin is an imperialistic oligarch and is in the wrong, here, but the US and Europe has gone back on their agreements and it instigated this. In 1990, both the US and NATO agreed to no eastward expansion beyond Germany with the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. That was ignored and as the USSR fell, their former nations were added to the NATO roster. This is of concern to Russia as the distance between NATO, an organization really created to be antagonistic to them, creeps closer to their main seat of power. Ukraine was the last frontier in that regard as it provides a strategic pathway to major Russian cities from the west.

Now, this is the explanation coming from many folks that know this issue fairly well. There is probably a lot more to it, as international relations is very complex and multi-faceted. But this explanation really makes sense to me.

Thank you.

But as I recall, 1990 agreements with Gorbachev and Russia were tied to aid packages and agreements for economic and political reforms which Russia abrogated in the mid-1990's (as part of Putin's rise in power).

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85962.htm

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2022, 01:33 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Thank you.

But as I recall, 1990 agreements with Gorbachev and Russia were tied to aid packages and agreements for economic and political reforms which Russia abrogated in the mid-1990's (as part of Putin's rise in power).

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85962.htm

Not this particular one. I will say, though, there was no formal agreement to back up Putin's claims, but the lack of one is there because of the status of the nations at the time of the treaty reunifying Germany.

The area is just a mess.

[Arturo Bandini]

(02-25-2022, 01:33 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Thank you.

But as I recall, 1990 agreements with Gorbachev and Russia were tied to aid packages and agreements for economic and political reforms which Russia abrogated in the mid-1990's (as part of Putin's rise in power).

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85962.htm

Putin took power in Russia in august 1999.

[Arturo Bandini]

(02-25-2022, 01:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Of course he hasn't been innovative. He's an old hand at all of this and his moves are predictable. As for what we could've done to avoid this? Support a referendum for the separatist regions and agree to not add Ukraine to NATO. We tend to overlook our role in creating this problem. Don't get me wrong, Putin is an imperialistic oligarch and is in the wrong, here, but the US and Europe has gone back on their agreements and it instigated this. In 1990, both the US and NATO agreed to no eastward expansion beyond Germany with the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. That was ignored and as the USSR fell, their former nations were added to the NATO roster. This is of concern to Russia as the distance between NATO, an organization really created to be antagonistic to them, creeps closer to their main seat of power. Ukraine was the last frontier in that regard as it provides a strategic pathway to major Russian cities from the west.

Now, this is the explanation coming from many folks that know this issue fairly well. There is probably a lot more to it, as international relations is very complex and multi-faceted. But this explanation really makes sense to me.

Those country were just on the wrong side of the wall in 1945. Historically, they have no tie with Russia. 

Those country have been occupied during 50 years by the Red Army, they know exactly who they are, what they do.

So it's not a real surprise that they wanted to join NATO because they know very well what it is to be invaded.

Budapest.
Prague.
Warsaw.
Baltic countries.

They know. So to protect themselves they joined NATO and there is no way in Hell that because they were on the wrong side of a wall that they will ask permission to Russia to do what they want on their land.

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2022, 03:05 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Those country were just on the wrong side of the wall in 1945. Historically, they have no tie with Russia. 

Those country have been occupied during 50 years by the Red Army, they know exactly who they are, what they do.

So it's not a real surprise that they wanted to join NATO because they know very well what it is to be invaded.

Budapest.
Prague.
Warsaw.
Baltic countries.

They know. So to protect themselves they joined NATO and there is no way in Hell that because they were on the wrong side of a wall that they will ask permission to Russia to do what they want on their land.

Which I understand. However, the Russian view is that NATO accepting them was a violation of the agreement between Russia and NATO back when Germany was reunified. I completely get why they would want to join, but that doesn't change the Russian position. To them, all they see is an organization founded to be antagonistic to them surrounding them.

[Tiger Teeth]

(02-22-2022, 01:32 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I have a bad feeling about this. Haven’t legitimately feared of nuclear war in my life. This feels different.

If this goes well for them I see China going after Taiwan soon.

I have my doubts sanctions will end this. Violence might be the only thing the guy who has consistently poisoned and killed adversaries understands. F Putin

Me either man.  I'm 58 and I stayed up all night and watched the news.  Tbh, I'm pretty damn nervous over this crap.  They have 6000 nukes now.  That's more than all of NATO has...combined.  And Russia supposedly has that supersonic technology making their shit faster, too.

[Bengalzona]

(02-25-2022, 03:01 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Putin took power in Russia in august 1999.

Yes, that was when he was elected. But his rise to power started before that and was linked to the First Chechen War (1994 to 1996). The Chechen's fought off the much larger Russian military at the time, forcing the Yeltsin government to sign an embarrassing peace treaty and letting Putin usurp and consolidate most of the political power in the country. By late 1996, he was basically making all the decisions behind the scenes.

(On a side note: how you been, brother?)

[Bengalzona]

(02-25-2022, 02:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not this particular one. I will say, though, there was no formal agreement to back up Putin's claims, but the lack of one is there because of the status of the nations at the time of the treaty reunifying Germany.

The area is just a mess.

It is hard to take any national leader seriously when he claims he wants to "de-Nazify" a country whose president is Jewish.

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2022, 03:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: It is hard to take any national leader seriously when he claims he wants to "de-Nazify" a country whose president is Jewish.

Yeah, that is a definitely stretch to try to garner support for the move. I mean, there is the Azov detachment and a sizeable neo-Nazi movement within Ukraine, but it doesn't have an huge influence on the government.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-25-2022, 03:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: It is hard to take any national leader seriously when he claims he wants to "de-Nazify" a country whose president is Jewish.

(02-25-2022, 04:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, that is a definitely stretch to try to garner support for the move. I mean, there is the Azov detachment and a sizeable neo-Nazi movement within Ukraine, but it doesn't have an huge influence on the government.

He's taking a page from Antifa, because we all know it's ok to "punch a Nazi."

/s

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Putin is a very rich man with assets all around the globe. We need to seize absolutely everything he owns that we can get our hands on, permanently. All his property, gone, all his bank accounts gone, basically completely strip him of all foreign owned assets.

[Bengalzona]

(02-25-2022, 04:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He's taking a page from Antifa, because we all know it's ok to "punch a Nazi."

/s

Indeed. And clearly a comment that was meant for media entertainment rather than serious consideration, such as his comments about Ukraine developing nuclear weapons after they returned thousands of existing former-Soviet weapons back in the 90's.

[Arturo Bandini]

(02-25-2022, 03:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: It is hard to take any national leader seriously when he claims he wants to "de-Nazify" a country whose president is Jewish.

There is a french candidate in the presidential race actually which is jewish and have a lot of admiration for nazis.

Extreme right wing nut of course.

[Arturo Bandini]

(02-25-2022, 03:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Which I understand. However, the Russian view is that NATO accepting them was a violation of the agreement between Russia and NATO back when Germany was reunified. I completely get why they would want to join, but that doesn't change the Russian position. To them, all they see is an organization founded to be antagonistic to them surrounding them.

We are not going Russia to decide what happens in Europe. This is already war for us at the moment and there is no way in Hell Russia will get out of this freely.

USA, NATO or not.

Ukrainian people are going to fight for their land and we will provide to them everything they need while isolating Russia from all the economics and basically the world.


Their economy will explode and Putin told us he has nuclear weapon. Our answer is clear : We have too.

[Arturo Bandini]

(02-25-2022, 04:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Putin is a very rich man with assets all around the globe.  We need to seize absolutely everything he owns that we can get our hands on, permanently.  All his property, gone, all his bank accounts gone, basically completely strip him of all foreign owned assets.

Europe just did that for him and Lavrov

[masonbengals fan]

(02-25-2022, 04:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Putin is a very rich man with assets all around the globe.  We need to seize absolutely everything he owns that we can get our hands on, permanently.  All his property, gone, all his bank accounts gone, basically completely strip him of all foreign owned assets.

 If possible it should have been done days ago.

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2022, 04:28 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote:  If possible it should have been done years ago.

FTFY.

Putin has been an issue for years. I'm not saying we have a spotless record over here, but given his autocracy in Russia he is ultimately responsible for so many heinous acts during his tenure.

[Belsnickel]

***Language warning!!!!***

I couldn't not share this, though. There were 13 Ukrainian personnel on this island. After this exchange, there was a bombardment and all 13 were killed.

[Bengalzona]

(02-25-2022, 04:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Putin is a very rich man with assets all around the globe.  We need to seize absolutely everything he owns that we can get our hands on, permanently.  All his property, gone, all his bank accounts gone, basically completely strip him of all foreign owned assets.

Yeah. I wonder why we haven't heard anything about doing something like that?

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2022, 04:56 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Yeah. I wonder why we haven't heard anything about doing something like that?

The EU is freezing his assets in their territory.