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(02-26-2022, 06:42 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And like SSF said, let’s get back to the Cold War mindset on Russia. They suck. I’m glad my friends on the left finally think so and I’m dismayed that there are those on the right who don’t.
I am on the side of democracy, which is something Putin and his oligarchs do not agree with. I have never been a tankie, so I don't think highly of autocrats.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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Got to admit, I fully expected to wake up today to news of the fall of Kyiv. Kudos to Zelenskyy, kudos to Ukraine.
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(02-26-2022, 06:42 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And like SSF said, let’s get back to the Cold War mindset on Russia. They suck. I’m glad my friends on the left finally think so and I’m dismayed that there are those on the right who don’t.
Lost amid the war going on is that CPAC is happening right now if you want to see more things the right believes that will dismay you.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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(02-26-2022, 09:08 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: Got to admit, I fully expected to wake up today to news of the fall of Kyiv. Kudos to Zelenskyy, kudos to Ukraine.
These people are used to rough times. They have been invaded by nazis, by the red army, they know what real freedom is because they earned it and died fot it.
You won't see these guys crying because they have to wear a mask ...
That's what tough dudes do, fight for their land.
The vast majority of so called patriots are not because when you are one, you don't have to tell it.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
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(02-25-2022, 07:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I get where you're going with this, but I think you're going to be disappointed in that regard. This was always much more of a talking point than an accusation grounded in fact.
In France, there is at least 3 political parties who are going to be bankrupted very soon. And you don't listen about them much these days.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
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Saw this on The Hill in the middle of my morning media reading. Thought it was interesting as this point has been made in this thread.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/595919-62-percent-of-voters-say-putin-wouldnt-have-invaded-ukraine-if-trump
62% is a significant number. Normally this type of event helps the party in charge as the nation rallies against the incident in question. I don't think that's going to be the case here. Of course, I know some of you think that's because the GOP is being unpatriotic by not being in lockstep with Biden, but maybe, just maybe, people aren't standing with Biden because they sincerely believe he's part of the problem? I know there's no changing the minds of the people here who think one way or the other, but I did think this poll had some very interesting results.
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(02-26-2022, 01:33 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: In France, there is at least 3 political parties who are going to be bankrupted very soon. And you don't listen about them much these days.
I'll certainly trust your analysis on French political parties. But here the GOP being funded by Russia is no more true than the Dems being funded by China.
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(02-26-2022, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll certainly trust your analysis on French political parties. But here the GOP being funded by Russia is no more true than the Dems being funded by China.
In Europe it will be huge. The real victory of Putin is that he bought a lot of folks in our politics. Even a former prime minister who was supposed to be elected if he hadn't be caught stealing public money in the final stages of the election.
Shameless people.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
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(02-26-2022, 02:37 PM)GMDino Wrote:
Wow
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(02-26-2022, 03:28 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Wow
Yeah, this sucks. I see it as on par with those members of Congress who support Farakhan and The Nation of Islam, both rabidly antisemitic as well. Odd that certain people here have never condemned them. Yes, I'm sure I'll get hit with "whataboutism", but it doesn't really fit, as I am condemning this as well.
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(02-26-2022, 10:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: Lost amid the war going on is that CPAC is happening right now if you want to see more things the right believes that will dismay you.
LOL so Biden caused the Ukrainian conflict to distract from domestic issues.
That's pretty much what "the Left" has been saying about Putin. Putin and Schnatter understand how propaganda works--
accuse the other guy first, and then keep accusing him.
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(02-25-2022, 12:12 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: As far as Biden, I'm not a fan. He has been sort of mediocre as a POTUS, IMO. But while he has not been especially innovative with this Ukraine situation, I'm not exactly sure what his critics expected him to do here. I'd like to hear what people feel he could have done to avoid this, because I'm not seeing it.
Hey B! I don't see anything Biden could have done to prevent Putin's invasion.
I will say, though, that Biden's response so far has been competent, good even.
One thing that especially impressed me is the way he and his FP team immediately began countering Russian propaganda by "predicting" Putin's claims and potential false-flag pretexts. "We're going to be hearing that the Ukrainians are attacking ethnic Russians . . . etc." Including prepared film for news distribution.
Part of that effort was publicizing US intel and assessments, which began another baseline for judging/demonstrating how Putin's actions conflict with his rhetoric. (Remember, he was saying there was no intent to invade a few weeks ago.)
Follow that with his firm statements regarding a "Western" response, which would include serious sanctions. And he has made good on that.
Finally, I approve of the way that he has stepped into the leadership position in the world response to the invasion. He's rallied NATO. And he has so far done a good job of rallying world opinion against Putin. Even Kazahkstan has refused Putin's request to send troops and supplies to help out the invasion.
So I don't buy the Fox/Newsmax assessment that Biden is "weak" and Putin is a genius "playing three-dimensional chess." LOL
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(02-26-2022, 06:32 PM)Dill Wrote: Hey B! I don't see anything Biden could have done to prevent Putin's invasion.
I will say, though, that Biden's response so far has been competent, good even.
One thing that especially impressed me is the way he and his FP team immediately began countering Russian propaganda by "predicting" Putin's claims and potential false-flag pretexts. "We're going to be hearing that the Ukrainians are attacking ethnic Russians . . . etc." Including prepared film for news distribution.
Part of that effort was publicizing US intel and assessments, which began another baseline for judging/demonstrating how Putin's actions conflict with his rhetoric. (Remember, he was saying there was no intent to invade a few weeks ago.)
Follow that with his firm statements regarding a "Western" response, which would include serious sanctions. And he has made good on that.
Finally, I approve of the way that he has stepped into the leadership position in the world response to the invasion. He's rallied NATO. And he has so far done a good job of rallying world opinion against Putin. Even Kazahkstan has refused Putin's request to send troops and supplies to help out the invasion.
US intelligence has certainly been on point, calling Putin's moves out before he made them.
Makes the reports of Russian confusion, e.g. "we don't know who to shoot, they all look like us" encouraging. The world certainly expected Ukraine to put up a spirited resistance, but the reported Russian incompetence is a very welcome development.
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(02-25-2022, 04:56 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Yeah. I wonder why we haven't heard anything about doing something like that?
As you know, sanctions are complicated, calibrated and coordinated disincentives, almost always integrated with other measures, such as deployment of military power, enlarging alliances. Some argue they don't really work--though they did bring Iran to the table. ANyway, we have learned a lot from past sanction efforts. E.g., we (e.g., our Treasury Intel) have gotten much better at tracking hidden money, money shifted to shell companies and relatives.That's why current sanctions go after family members of oligarchs and of Putin himself. One goal of sanction targeting is to create social divisions within a country, in hopes groups more amenable to the sanctioners' politics will seize power.
(Sorry for telling you what you already know; I'm just a bit frustrated listening to reporters' questions on sanctions. Some seem unaware of how they are supposed to work and what we are to expect from them. Had to let it out somewhere.)
You've probably heard now that even Putin is to be sanctioned. That's going to be interesting. This places P in a category near to Kim and the Iranian leadership. If Biden/Europe can make this stick, then this rolls back all the "prestige" Russia has acquired from hosting Olympics and participating in international conferences. Russia will become a pariah state--so long as Putin rules. A great incentive for change from within.
(02-25-2022, 01:33 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: But as I recall, 1990 agreements with Gorbachev and Russia were tied to aid packages and agreements for economic and political reforms which Russia abrogated in the mid-1990's (as part of Putin's rise in power).
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85962.htm
Probably the immediate cause of Putin's recognition that "the West" would not work for Russian parity in international/global politics was the way in which the US cut Russia out of negotiations over Kosovo, when Russians supposedly had a diplomatic "in" with their Serbian brothers. That was the first big insult. But there are a host of smaller incidents that I think also spurred Putin to begin censoring/controlling the press, ranging from that wonderful political satire "Puppets" to the Kursk disaster (2000), which placed a confused Putin on television before angry, grieving families who wanted to know why he didn't ask for Western help sooner to save the crew's lives. Embarrassing--"strong" leaders cannot take that kind of public dissent. The desire to reclaim empire seems to have grown slowly, post-2000. In 2007, at the Munich Security conference, P was still pleading a reasonable diplomatic position which included a fairly rational critique of the Unipolar world which followed the Soviet break up, and a call for "multipolarity." He regarded the UN as the one "universal" venue for political discussion/international policy, in contrast to the partisan NATO and EU, which only represented regional interests. It's since 2011, and his increasing fusion of politics and religion, that he has turned in interest to the Ukraine, which by then came to represent a threat to the kind of klepto state Russia had become.
The U.S., in my view, should have taken greater care to rebuild the post-Soviet sphere, including Russia, to prevent events like those following the Yugoslavian implosion. Something on the scale of the Marshall Plan was needed to organize and fund economic recovery/transition. Instead "the West" sent US-trained Chicago school economists and advisers preaching shock. That created the basis for a mafia state to arise from the wreckage of a non-liberal state and centrally planned economy.
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(02-26-2022, 06:42 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And like SSF said, let’s get back to the Cold War mindset on Russia. They suck. I’m glad my friends on the left finally think so and I’m dismayed that there are those on the right who don’t.
This is my take on it, too.
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