Why Not?

[Weazzel80]

According to Over the Cap, if we trade him we save 7.3 M and eat 2.8 M in dead money.

He almost had 1,000 yards and comes up big on third downs. I also think it sends a bad precedent to the team if we cut/trade such a core player when we should be going for a Super Bowl. Would Burrow be happy with this? I doubt it

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 10:44 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Or you could release Waynes who has done virtually nothing for the Bengals, save $10M, and retain a starting WR who only dropped one pass last season.

Waynes is already gone.

I dont care if he hadnt dropped a pass in the last 5 years, this is the game it counted - how many drops did Kupp have late in the 4th?

Can you tell me we dont have a better chance to win the super bowl with a $10M RG and Trent Taylor in the slot than Tyler Boyd and his bad game?

Do you really think it smart to pay WR3 more than 4 starting lineman combined on the worst oline the SB has ever seen?

Do you really think 4.3 electric slot cannot be as effective with the same 4 catches per game?  Granted less experience and less emergency help if Boyd or Higgins goes down but still 5 years younger, waaaaay faster, and 9M cheaper.

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 10:41 PM)Au165 Wrote: Cap is not cash, the Bengals underwhelming OL FA haul will have nothing to do with cap and everything to do with cash. I am not sure why people don’t get that cap is not and hasn’t been the problem. Cap wasn’t the problem with Lawson last year, it frankly hasn’t been the issue with most people we don’t get it’s the guaranteed cash.

Tyler Boyd will have absolutely zero impact on what the Bengals can or will potentially do in FA as the inhibitor for the 100th time will be the signing bonuses and guaranteed required to get the players they want.

No shit Cap isnt cash did you not see my 12 paragraph post on escrow?

And yes Boyd's 8.7M savings can make difference due to the amount the Bengals always like to hold on to. That is another player depending on the guaranteed aspect, especially if it is a one year deal to a Gronk or Moses.

[*ochocincos*]

I've also been ok with moving on from Boyd if it meant guaranteeing it solidifies the OL and defense.
I firmly believe the Bengals could draft a WR on Day 2 to cover WR3 duties admirably.
If Boyd is let go, it frees up $7.3 mill in cap space for 2022 and $10.3 mill in 2023.

With that said, the Bengals can probably structure new contracts in a way that gives them the space this year without doing such a thing as moving on from Boyd.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-08-2022, 10:54 PM)casear2727 Wrote: No shit Cap isnt cash did you not see my 12 paragraph post on escrow?

And yes Boyd's 8.7M savings can make difference due to the amount the Bengals always like to hold on to. That is another player depending on the guaranteed aspect, especially if it is a one year deal to a Gronk or Moses.

I dunno that I'd let Boyd go for a TE.
WR3 is more important to the offense than TE.
However, if it helped allow the OL to get another really good piece, absolutely.

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 10:49 PM)Weazzel80 Wrote: According to Over the Cap, if we trade him we save 7.3 M and eat 2.8 M in dead money.

He almost had 1,000 yards and comes up big on third downs. I also think it sends a bad precedent to the team if we cut/trade such a core player when we should be going for a Super Bowl. Would Burrow be happy with this? I doubt it

We get Burrow a Robinson in the draft he would be happy.

We can get younger and faster and have millions to improve at another spot. Boyd was our least performing receiver in our most important game.

And can we stop with the locker room stuff and act like this is the pros?  Just like people believing that guys like DJ Reader, Bell and Hilton would melt if Bates was tagged... these are pros that understand the biz side of things, they literally play with a different roster every single season.

No one was happy when Belicheck cut Malloy - a real star, not just a fan favorite, and he kept doing it pay priority positions and not fan favs and they have a bunch of rings.  Hard to argue.

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 10:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I dunno that I'd let Boyd go for a TE.
WR3 is more important to the offense than TE.
However, if it helped allow the OL to get another really good piece, absolutely.

I guess it depends on the TE, but the point is still the same - Morgan Moses signed a one year deal with the Jets last year. He is a year older and most likely gets another 1 year deal. He doesnt impact guaranteed money and is stop gap at RT, maybe until Smith is ready?  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-08-2022, 10:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: In the Super Bowl, Boyd ran the wrong route and cost us a sack in the redzone when we could have wrapped up the game after the INT. He also dropped a crucial 3rd pass late in the 4th. That is NOT producing when called upon in the most crucial situation.

WR3 is NOT a priority position especially when that spot makes more than 4 starters on the oline combined.

WR3 is a priority when the offense runs 3 WRs sets 77% of the time and Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps. He is a starter. He played in a higher percentage of snaps than Uzomah, Hilton, Awuzie, Higgins, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, Mixon, Wilson, Pratt, Reader, and Waynes.

Hendrickson’s cap hit is about 33% more, but he played 9.7% less. Waynes’ cap hit will be $15M although he played 50.9% less snaps.

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 11:03 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: WR3 is a priority when the offense runs 3 WRs sets 77% of the time and Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps. He is a starter. He played in a higher percentage of snaps than Uzomah, Hilton, Awuzie, Higgins, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, Mixon, Wilson, Pratt, Reader, and Waynes.

Hendrickson’s cap hit is about 33% more, but he played 9.7% less. Waynes’ cap hit will be $15M although he played 50.9% less snaps.

Forget defense we are talking offense and understand priority positions which I am sure you do. It isnt snaps.

There is only so much money to be handed out.  I totally agree with the Rams and Chiefs who have been to 4 Super Bowls recently while we have done squat for 31 years until a few months ago:

Majority of funds to pay top notch positions for the Bengals in order:
QB, WR1, Oline is a mixture, WR2.   Thats it - pay studs at these spots and everything else is ok - any RB can run through open holes, any slot can catch a slant, and a decent TE - all 3 of these spots has hundreds of guys to choose from.  

Tell me where I am wrong.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-08-2022, 10:37 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Keep rolling, but dont say a word when we dont knock it out of the park with oline signings this off season or when Boyd walks and we get zero value.

There. I think I have pissed off everyone in the thread that disagreed, LOL

Nothing personal.

He is scheduled to be a FA in 2024 or 8 years after the Bengals drafted him. How many teams get something in return for an 8 year veteran who just walks away? Besides the 8 seasons.

[*bfine32*]

One thing folks may be overlooking when considering Boyd's "worth". How much dose he bring the the WR room? Chase is a rookie and Tee is on year 2. Sure you could get a vet mentor cheaper, but would that dude bring as much on the field as TB? You've got to consider the entire package.

As I've said: I'd only trade him for an equal player in a position of bigger need

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 11:10 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: He is scheduled to be a FA in 2024 or 8 years after the Bengals drafted him. How many teams get something in return for an 8 year veteran who just walks away?  Besides the 8 seasons.

If you are the Patriots you trade him at 6 years (now) for a draft pick and replace him with a much faster, younger version and save 9M.

Thats how they have operated... 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-08-2022, 10:49 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Waynes is already gone.

Then why is he still counting $15.9M towards the cap?

Quote:I dont care if he hadnt dropped a pass in the last 5 years, this is the game it counted - how many drops did Kupp have late in the 4th?

Can you tell me we dont have a better chance to win the super bowl with a $10M RG and Trent Taylor in the slot than Tyler Boyd and his bad game?

Do you really think it smart to pay WR3 more than 4 starting lineman combined on the worst oline the SB has ever seen?

Do you really think 4.3 electric slot cannot be as effective with the same 4 catches per game?  Granted less experience and less emergency help if Boyd or Higgins goes down but still 5 years younger, waaaaay faster, and 9M cheaper.

Why don’t we review what I wrote before . . .

(03-08-2022, 09:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Bengals play 3 WR sets something like 77% of the time. If Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps is he “just” a third WR? For comparison, Reader played 53% of defensive snaps and Hendrickson play 64%.

Tag and trade Bates and the Bengals save $12M.

In 2021, a top 5 S started at $14M average per year. Top 5 C $10.5M. Top 5 LG $10.8M. Top 5 RG $9M. Top 5 RT $17M.

If it is me and I can get an equivalent quality player at a position of need for less that allows me to apply the savings elsewhere.

In other words, sign a Top 5 RG for less than a Top 5 S and draft a new S for less. Use the savings elsewhere or at least roll it over.

[*Synric*]

(03-08-2022, 10:59 PM)casear2727 Wrote: We get Burrow a Robinson in the draft he would be happy.

Can you imagine 5'8 180lb Wan'Dale Robinson trying to crack back a Defensive End or Outside Linebacker in an wide zone offense? I know he's a Slot WR but he's better fit for a spread offense like Kansas City or Arizona.

That said Tyler Boyd is a slot only receiver that limits opportunities for Ja'Marr Chase in the slot and isnt a threat on the outside when Chase is in the slot. He is mostly reliable chain mover but not a play maker. Boyd can be upgraded....

Question is what capital is the team willing to use to upgrade Tyler Boyd? Treylon Burks might be there at 31.

[casear2727]

(03-08-2022, 11:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Then why is he still counting $15.9M towards the cap?


Why don’t we review what I wrote before . . .

I'll use better wording, Waynes being cut is a foregone conclusion, at least it better be or one of us needs to take over...

Help me out with what you are referencing before? I looked but Im not sure which part?  In all honesty Im curious as to your point.

[Rubekahn29]

Really just depends on what they do with the money he would free up. If they spend it on quality O-line then yes, I am okay with it. If they do something stupid with it, then no.

[J24]

(03-08-2022, 08:19 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I want some of what you're smoking. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/8722843002

 This article explains why I would be confident in Morgan's starting ability. His blocking ability alone would fill a key role in this offense.

Of Course Morgan isn't going to outshine Boyd but that doesn't mean he can't help  fill his role.

Obviously it would take a committee to replace production that Boyd would give you.

A early draft pick ,Taylor, and Mike Thomas on top of Morgan could do the job.

(03-08-2022, 08:50 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Several reasons:
-Boyd is a great player and on a very reasonable contract. We are not in cap trouble so why weaken a strength? We can improve our weaknesses without hurting our team in other areas this offseason which is a rare opportunity for playoff teams. If we need to make tough decisions like that do it next year. We can take another swing at it this year with virtually the same team that made the SB last year PLUS a much better o line. Why not do that? No need to let Boyd (or Bates for that matter) go this offseason.

-We run lots of 3 WR sets and need the guys to be able to produce when called upon.

-We were lucky with injuries last year, we will likely lose one of our top 3 WR’s to injury at some point and we can’t afford to have just Tee or just Chase and then all of the scrubs we have on the roster as the remaining starters. We have 3 good WR’s and then NOTHING afterwards. Go watch the 2nd browns game and you’ll see just how pathetic our backup WR’s are. Believe we had 3 consecutive drops at one point in that game.

We have 35 Million in cap it's not a ton of Cap space. Cutting Wayne's, Perine, Wilson, Hopkins, and trading Boyd would give around 70 Million in cap space.

As for the Browns game there is a lot of different variables that went on that make it hard to judge players. One Burrow wasn't playing and Two neither Chase or Higgins played that much.

A better example would be when Higgins missed two games earlier in the season and the offense didn't really miss a beat.

(03-08-2022, 08:56 PM)pulses Wrote: What Morgan did in college has nothing to do with any of this. If he was as good or even close to Boyd he would have been playing LONG AGO. I have no problem trading Boyd and even mentioned a few times to trade him to NE for Shaq Mason. With that being said if we got a 3rd for him I would take it and draft his replacement this year if we could not trade him for OL. But to think Morgan is even close to Boyd or a capable starter you're def smoking something.

Why does  what Morgan did in college not matter? That's how we literally judge players before they get into the NFL.

Secondly the dude has proven to be one of the best Gunners in the NFL and the Bengals coaching staff has called him one of the best blocking WRs in the game. He's earned an opportunity for playing time

Is he a 1000 yard WR like Boyd? I don't think so but Could he be an elite Blocker(which is very important to this offense) and get between 400 and 500 yards. Yeah I think that's plausible. 

(03-08-2022, 09:08 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Every time I see a trade Boyd thread I just roll.  IF the coaches thought that Morgan could replace him, they would be giving him reps.  

Morgan is not even in the same universe as Boyd.  Boyd is a big reason why this offense works so well.  You don't trade a guy like that when your Super Bowl window is open.

1 Morgan is getting reps(see article above) . He was the lead blocker on Mixons first TD in the regular season game against the Raiders for example.

Is Boyd still a big player in this offense? He averaged 28 yards a game(4th on team) in the playoffs and was a distant third in receiving yards during the regular season. Yeah Boyd is a good player but  his importance to this offense is less significant than it once was.

Also a good starting RG + top 100 draft pick or Boyd?

(03-08-2022, 09:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Bengals play 3 WR sets something like 77% of the time. If Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps is he “just” a third WR? For comparison, Reader played 53% of defensive snaps and Hendrickson play 64%.

Tag and trade Bates and the Bengals save $12M.

In 2021, a top 5 S started at $14M average per year. Top 5 C $10.5M. Top 5 LG $10.8M. Top 5 RG $9M. Top 5 RT $17M.

If it is me and I can get an equivalent quality player at a position of need for less that allows me to apply the savings elsewhere.

In other words, sign a Top 5 RG for less than a Top 5 S and draft a new S for less. Use the savings elsewhere or at least roll it over.

Comparing Wr Snaps to Defensive lineman snaps isn't really fair. Defensive line is a lot more physical position and takes a bigger toll on the body then a WR.

 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-08-2022, 10:59 PM)casear2727 Wrote: We get Burrow a Robinson in the draft he would be happy.

We can get younger and faster and have millions to improve at another spot. Boyd was our least performing receiver in our most important game.

And can we stop with the locker room stuff and act like this is the pros?  Just like people believing that guys like DJ Reader, Bell and Hilton would melt if Bates was tagged... these are pros that understand the biz side of things, they literally play with a different roster every single season.

No one was happy when Belicheck cut Malloy - a real star, not just a fan favorite, and he kept doing it pay priority positions and not fan favs and they have a bunch of rings.  Hard to argue.

WRs drafted at 20, 27, 34, 49, 56, 57, 59, 77, 82, 85, 89, and 91 didn’t match Boyd’s production.

Only three rookie WRs drafted in the first 3 rounds last year matched or exceeded Boyd’s production and one of them was drafted by the Bengals.

And your point is the WR3 had less production than WR1 and WR2 in Chase and Higgins? That’s a real news flash. I have a suspicion Wan’dale would have less production than those two, also.

[Au165]

(03-08-2022, 10:54 PM)casear2727 Wrote: No shit Cap isnt cash did you not see my 12 paragraph post on escrow?

And yes Boyd's 8.7M savings can make difference due to the amount the Bengals always like to hold on to. That is another player depending on the guaranteed aspect, especially if it is a one year deal to a Gronk or Moses.

Nope…I avoid most the pages of these things.

And no…it really doesn’t. The cap space can be created without doing much of anything but it won’t need to be because the cash required to actually get the guys won’t be given out in terms of signing bonuses and guarantees. They could simply convert a few guys salaries next year into signing bonuses to easily make up the cap number of Boyd with little cash considerations (cash still spent in same year but upfront versus amortized across the year) but they won’t…because they don’t need cap space because they won’t commit the large signing bonuses/guarantees to full use it.

Realistically, the Bengals could probably create another 20+ million with some accounting tricks. The cap is not inhibiting the Bengals in anyway, watch as other teams this off-season with less cap somehow sign big name guys by creating space left and right…because the cap isn’t actually real.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-08-2022, 11:08 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Forget defense we are talking offense and understand priority positions which I am sure you do. It isnt snaps.

There is only so much money to be handed out.  I totally agree with the Rams and Chiefs who have been to 4 Super Bowls recently while we have done squat for 31 years until a few months ago:

Majority of funds to pay top notch positions for the Bengals in order:
QB, WR1, Oline is a mixture, WR2.   Thats it - pay studs at these spots and everything else is ok - any RB can run through open holes, any slot can catch a slant, and a decent TE - all 3 of these spots has hundreds of guys to choose from.  

Tell me where I am wrong.

We aren’t just talking offense. We are talking the whole team. And how best to spend money under the salary cap to improve the overall team.

There are players that play less and make more. If you want to sign priority free agents at premier positions then there are other players you should release to have more cap space to make those signings.