The Trans Movement Just Hit Home.......

[*pally*]

(05-04-2023, 01:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Musculature and skeletal.  

"During the last season in the NCAA, Lia Thomas competed in the men’s division, in 2018-19. There, she ranked 554th in the 200-yd freestyle, and she is now fifth in the event this year.

Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division."


I mean it's really not a question.

If you put me against a woman college swimmer I'd lose the 200 by 100 yds or more.  But male college athlete versus female college athlete  there's an issue.

The concern is legitimate...the place to solve it is within the sports federations, not state and federal legislatures.  It is being politicized not to solve a problem but to score points in the culture war.   That isn't fair to anyone most especially ALL the athletes

[GMDino]

(05-04-2023, 01:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Musculature and skeletal.  

"During the last season in the NCAA, Lia Thomas competed in the men’s division, in 2018-19. There, she ranked 554th in the 200-yd freestyle, and she is now fifth in the event this year.

Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division."


I mean it's really not a question.

If you put me against a woman college swimmer I'd lose the 200 by 100 yds or more.  But male college athlete versus female college athlete  there's an issue.

Well, again, there is ONE.

Better have multiple laws against everything trans. 

[Millhouse]

(05-04-2023, 12:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Didn't Caitlyn Jenner run for office?  Based upon the voter response, I'd say the right isn't listening.  

She basically threw her name in the hat for a recall election in case the Governor got recalled, which he didn't. Which has zero bearing on this topic at hand.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-04-2023, 01:08 PM)pally Wrote: The concern is legitimate...the place to solve it is within the sports federations, not state and federal legislatures.  It is being politicized not to solve a problem but to score points in the culture war.   That isn't fair to anyone most especially ALL the athletes

Oh I agree that legislature has no business in it.  I should have said that.  It's up to the organizations. If it angers people, that should be focused on the organizations.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 01:23 PM)Millhouse Wrote: She basically threw her name in the hat for a recall election in case the Governor got recalled, which he didn't. Which has zero bearing on this topic at hand.

You're the one who brought up who does and doesn't value said person's opinion.

[Millhouse]

(05-04-2023, 01:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well, again, there is ONE.

Better have multiple laws against everything trans. 

And that's the issue I am seeing. Instead of a proportional compromise on very few certain issues per say, some of the hardline right wingers are going overboard. For example I am against the physical medical procedures for minors, especially under 16 years old for gender transitioning. But I am not against therapies, counseling, and that sort of stuff in helping kids work through what they are going thru. However as we are seeing in states now, they want to prohibit all of that instead of just the physical medical procedures.

[CJD]

(05-04-2023, 01:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Musculature and skeletal.  

"During the last season in the NCAA, Lia Thomas competed in the men’s division, in 2018-19. There, she ranked 554th in the 200-yd freestyle, and she is now fifth in the event this year.

Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division."


I mean it's really not a question.

If you put me against a woman college swimmer I'd lose the 200 by 100 yds or more.  But male college athlete versus female college athlete  there's an issue.

This was the wikipedia entry of how she performed on the men's team prior to her transition.

Quote:Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[5] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men's 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[5][4][9] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top UPenn men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free, but was the sixth best among UPenn men's team members in the 200 free.

Then, she began to transition, which meant taking hormone replacement therapies. A lot of trans women report losing significant strength during hormone therapies (which is why the NCAA allows trans women to compete after a certain period of time on hormone replacement therapies). 

Quote:Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.

Quote:In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. 

Then they let her compete against women, where she began ranking among the top athletes again.

Quote:In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle.

To me, that just seems like this person was an elite athlete prior to transition, went through transition where she lost muscle mass and strength but still was competing against men, obviously struggled because she no longer had the musculature she had prior to transition, and then when they allowed her to compete against women, she was more in line with their times as an elite athlete again.

In other words, the transition did its job to turn her from an elite male athlete to an elite female athlete.

Her skeletal structure obviously remained but, like I said, if a 6'1" trans woman cannot compete because she has a superior skeletal frame, are we banning cis women with similar skeletal structures? Katie Ledecky is 6'0" after all and she is the best cis female swimmer in the world (or at least one of them).

I'm not saying that trans women are definitely not a concern in women's events. But I think Lia Thomas isn't a great example or demonstration of that unfairness, since she was just an amazing swimmer before and after transition.

[GMDino]

(05-04-2023, 01:56 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas#cite_note-10][/url]
This was the wikipedia entry of how she performed on the men's team prior to her transition.


Then, she began to transition, which meant taking hormone replacement therapies. A lot of trans women report losing significant strength during hormone therapies (which is why the NCAA allows trans women to compete after a certain period of time on hormone replacement therapies). 

Then they let her compete against women, where she began ranking among the top athletes again.

To me, that just seems like this person was an elite athlete prior to transition, went through transition where she lost muscle mass and strength but still was competing against men, obviously struggled because she no longer had the musculature she had prior to transition, and then when they allowed her to compete against women, she was more in line with their times as an elite athlete again.

In other words, the transition did its job to turn her from an elite male athlete to an elite female athlete.

Her skeletal structure obviously remained but, like I said, if a 6'1" trans woman cannot compete because she has a superior skeletal frame, are we banning cis women with similar skeletal structures? Katie Ledecky is 6'0" after all and she is the best cis female swimmer in the world (or at least one of them).

I'm not saying that trans women are definitely not a concern in women's events. But I think Lia Thomas isn't a great example or demonstration of that unfairness, since she was just an amazing swimmer before and after transition.

So what your saying is that there is more to the story, details if you will, that make this more of a story than just "man bad a t sport, pretends to be women to beat women at sport"?

Interesting.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-04-2023, 01:56 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas#cite_note-10][/url]
This was the wikipedia entry of how she performed on the men's team prior to her transition.


Then, she began to transition, which meant taking hormone replacement therapies. A lot of trans women report losing significant strength during hormone therapies (which is why the NCAA allows trans women to compete after a certain period of time on hormone replacement therapies). 

Then they let her compete against women, where she began ranking among the top athletes again.

To me, that just seems like this person was an elite athlete prior to transition, went through transition where she lost muscle mass and strength but still was competing against men, obviously struggled because she no longer had the musculature she had prior to transition, and then when they allowed her to compete against women, she was more in line with their times as an elite athlete again.

In other words, the transition did its job to turn her from an elite male athlete to an elite female athlete.

Her skeletal structure obviously remained but, like I said, if a 6'1" trans woman cannot compete because she has a superior skeletal frame, are we banning cis women with similar skeletal structures? Katie Ledecky is 6'0" after all and she is the best cis female swimmer in the world (or at least one of them).

I'm not saying that trans women are definitely not a concern in women's events. But I think Lia Thomas isn't a great example or demonstration of that unfairness, since she was just an amazing swimmer before and after transition.

I'm not doubting she was an excellent swimmer no matter what, but she won the NCAA Championship in the 500 swimming for Penn's women's team.  I see ranked top 100 swimming for the men's team in the 500.  Again, excellent swimmer but not NCAA Champion caliber.  Personally I think it's ridiculous, but if the people are involved in it are OK with it, then that's fine by me.  I don't know that 2,3 and 4 would be fine with it, but I didn't check.  But in reality we have to adjust to the world.  I'm an alcoholic.  Many say it's in large part genetic.  That doesn't mean I go around telling people they can't drink around me.  In my opinion, you are a woman, fine, you just can't compete with the women in athletics.  If you want to compete, then compete against the men.  I think this is selfish.

[BFritz21]

(05-04-2023, 11:56 AM)Dill Wrote: Again, where do I say this. Cite thread and post and line. So far this is only you saying I say it.

Also, I don't see how listing chemical changes and periods and child bearing is a "service" to women. That used to be part of
the argument against allowing women the vote.
=

You're saying that trans women are women, therefore would have experienced all of the things I listed, meaning that you're saying that anyone can deal with all that and that trans women do deal with it, which is lessening what it means to be a woman.

[Dill]

(05-04-2023, 02:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're saying that trans women are women, therefore would have experienced all of the things I listed, meaning that you're saying that anyone can deal with all that and that trans women do deal with it, which is lessening what it means to be a woman.

There is a reason why you cannot cite thread, post and line where I have said this.

If I WERE saying that, it would be easy to just quote me. 

But apparently it is not easy. 

[*pally*]

(05-04-2023, 02:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're saying that trans women are women, therefore would have experienced all of the things I listed, meaning that you're saying that anyone can deal with all that and that trans women do deal with it, which is lessening what it means to be a woman.

Speaking as a woman, what anyone does or does not do in no way shape or form "lessens what it means to be a woman"  Thay is ludicrous.  That's like saying that being a male is tied entirely to his ability to have an erection and ejaculate

[Belsnickel]

I'm always curious about how people who insist on a binary definition of gender that is tied to a binary definition of sex really define male and female. It's definitely not as black and white as people would like to make it seem.

[BFritz21]

(05-04-2023, 05:37 PM)pally Wrote: Speaking as a woman, what anyone does or does not do in no way shape or form "lessens what it means to be a woman"  Thay is ludicrous.  That's like saying that being a male is tied entirely to his ability to have an erection and ejaculate

That's one exception that proves the rule. 

Thanks for proving my point.

[BFritz21]

Question for anyone that says being a man or woman is just a mindset: then why do people get sex changes?

Why would they need that if they're already the sex to which they identify?

[Belsnickel]

(05-04-2023, 05:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Question for anyone that says being a man or woman is just a mindset: then why do people get sex changes?

Why would they need that if they're already the sex to which they identify?

They actually tend to refer to those as gender affirming surgeries these days, and it really boils down to what someone does to be happy in their body. I would say that it is on par with breast augmentation when it comes down to it.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 06:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They actually tend to refer to those as gender affirming surgeries these days, and it really boils down to what someone does to be happy in their body. I would say that it is on par with breast augmentation when it comes down to it.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic, but I'd say it's like being a Bengals fan but also wanting to wear Bengals team gear. 


On a side note, when I think of these topics where we debate the danger of "where things are going" I like to admit that we are living our entire lives in a timeframe people who died before us were afraid of.

I'm not weighing in on whether that is the right or wrong mindset to have, on this situation or any other. I'm amused thinking how 100 years ago a bunch of people were lying on their deathbeds thinking "I don't want to die, but at least I won't have to be around to see the effects of women getting the right to vote!"


*END SCENE*

[CJD]

(05-04-2023, 05:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm always curious about how people who insist on a binary definition of gender that is tied to a binary definition of sex really define male and female. It's definitely not as black and white as people would like to make it seem.

People who believe their binary definition of gender aligns perfectly along the binary definition of sex will also say "you're not a real man if you *insert whatever measurement of manliness they're talking about in that moment*."

If man = penis, then there is no way to define masculinity other than "has penis."

But they obviously don't believe that, so why are they trying to pretend gender and sex are interchangeable?

[CJD]

(05-04-2023, 06:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I'm being overly simplistic, but I'd say it's like being a Bengals fan but also wanting to wear Bengals team gear. 


On a side note, when I think of these topics where we debate the danger of "where things are going" I like to admit that we are living our entire lives in a timeframe people who died before us were afraid of.

I'm not weighing in on whether that is the right or wrong mindset to have, on this situation or any other. I'm amused thinking how 100 years ago a bunch of people were lying on their deathbeds thinking "I don't want to die, but at least I won't have to be around to see the effects of women getting the right to vote!"


*END SCENE*

Every generation within a given culture or country is more progressive than the previous generation. I don't know why this is the case necessarily, but it is undeniable at this point.

Conservatism is, quite literally, fighting as hard as you can to stop "item A" from being accepted and then, when it is eventually too popular to fight anymore, moving on to the next thing, "item B" and fighting as hard as you can to stop that from being accepted.

Often times, this comes with re-writing history to pretend like you never were really THAT against "item A" being accepted, but that "item B" is just a bridge too far.

Repeat with item C, and item D and so on until the people who remember item A are dead and you can completely disavow your movement ever being opposed to it to begin with, but item E is definitely a bridge too far. 

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 06:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: People who believe their binary definition of gender aligns perfectly along the binary definition of sex will also say "you're not a real man if you *insert whatever measurement of manliness they're talking about in that moment*."

If man = penis, then there is no way to define masculinity other than "has penis."

But they obviously don't believe that, so why are they trying to pretend gender and sex are interchangeable?

That's a good point.  I'm a biological male and have always identified as one, but god help me I've been accused of being less than manly because I:

ordered a veggie burger in front of people
prefer cats to dogs
played soccer instead of football
admitted that I knew more than 0 words to a song from Grease
don't vote republican
don't own guns
never hunted
don't care for fishing
avoided fights and/or never really talked about how much I wanted to beat someone up
treat my wife like an equal partner

Hmm, maybe one of you manly men here needs to come inspect my genitals to make sure I'm really all man.

(05-04-2023, 06:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Repeat with item C, and item D and so on until the people who remember item A are dead and you can completely disavow your movement ever being opposed to it to begin with, but item E is definitely a bridge too far. 

It always amazes me how people can be defiant and rebellious teens and then grow into adults who claim that in their day no one got offended about anything.  Wait, so when you were cool and rebellious you were falling in line with your parent's generation and doing nothing against the grain?  My mother in law damn near got thrown out of the house as a teen for liking Elvis but no one got offended by stuff back then?  Say what?


We pretty full of crap as a society.  I think my ol' man summed it up best when he told me he got drafted right out of high school and did his duty and then all it took was letting his hair grow out for a bit when he was back home to be considered an America-hating commie.  God bless us.  Ok, I'm ranting now.