Rand Paul Tax Plan

[*michaelsean*]

(06-20-2015, 01:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The mortgage deduction is a much bigger benefit to people who have bigger mortgages.  It helps the wealthy much more than lower income classes.  The standard deduction is so high now that you have to have a pretty large mortgage to come out ahead itemizing.

A private jet deduction would work the same way.  Just because it helps all private jet owners does not mean it does not favor the wealthy over the middle and lower classes. 

No you don't. My mortgage is $150,000. Since you itemize that you itemize all your other taxes, and you come out ahead. You will cost middle class home owners money.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-20-2015, 09:59 AM)Benton Wrote: I think it should be on all of it.

I'm into archery. I don't do tournaments, but if I did, I would be taxed on the equipment (sales). I don't know if the guy collecting the entry fee would be taxed, but I would be taxed the winnings in the purse if i won.

So, yeah, I think if you play 10, win five, you should be taxed on five hands. That hobby and its industry aren't any more break worthy than any other. They just bribe better. Mostly in quarters from the slots.


Which is different.

Yes because in the archery contest you walkrd out with more than you walked in. In your thinking I could actually lose money in the casino and have to pay tax. I could play 10 hands of blackjack at $1000 a hand, lose 9 of them and win 1 for a loss of $8000 and you would tax me on the one I won.

[fredtoast]

(06-20-2015, 01:33 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No you don't.  My mortgage is $150,000.  Since you itemize that you itemize all your other taxes, and you come out ahead. You will cost middle class home owners money.

The standard deduction for a married couple is about $13K.  The interest on your mortgage should not even be half of that.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-20-2015, 01:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The standard deduction for a married couple is about $13K.  The interest on your mortgage should not even be half of that.

Well every year turbo tax shows me my itemized deductions and my standard deduction side by side and itemized has always won. It won even bigger when I paid for child care which you can itemize. Then you get to deduct property tax, local tax and state tax.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-20-2015, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Your fathers feelings have nothing to do with what is right and wrong.

It is just wrong for people who work for their money to have to pay income taxes while people who do NOTHING to earn money get it tax free.

True.  Which is why all those goddamn welfare recipients should be taxed on that income.  At least in the form of labor..


Interesting that you chose to only respond to part of my quote, and ignore the fact that I posted. The one showing that your opinion about estate taxes is among the minority view, in your very own State.

[fredtoast]

(06-20-2015, 03:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Interesting that you chose to only respond to part of my quote, and ignore the fact that I posted.  The one showing that your opinion about estate taxes is among the minority view, in your very own State.

The State of Tennessee is full of rubes.  I don't think our tax policies should be shaped by the state that is 45th in education level.

[fredtoast]

(06-20-2015, 02:55 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well every year turbo tax shows me my itemized deductions and my standard deduction side by side and itemized has always won.  It won even bigger when I paid for child care which you can itemize.  Then you get to deduct property tax, local tax and state tax.

Wow, you are one of those people who gets all sorts of benefits from the government.

I can see why you don't want to give them up.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-20-2015, 04:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The State of Tennessee is full of rubes.  I don't think our tax policies should be shaped by the state that is 45th in education level.

Interesting, you say "our tax policies" like it should be decided by one overlord, or even perhaps the Federal Government.  That is where things started getting messed up in the US.  The Federal Government intervening in what matters (like tax issues, for instance) that should be decided in each individual State, by the folks who live there.

Also, funny that you call the populous of taxpayers, that pay your salary, a bunch of rubes..  Since you obviously see yourself as a class far superior to your fellow man, perhaps you should run for Governor?

[*michaelsean*]

(06-20-2015, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wow, you are one of those people who gets all sorts of benefits from the government.

I can see why you don't want to give them up.

So that's your answer?

[Benton]

(06-20-2015, 01:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes because in the archery contest you walkrd out with more than you walked in.  In your thinking I could actually lose money in the casino and have to pay tax.  I could play 10 hands of blackjack at $1000 a hand, lose 9 of them and win 1 for a loss of $8000 and you would tax me on the one I won.

I could enter 10 tournaments costing $1000, win one for $1000 and I'm taxed on it. So I'm $9500 down.

If its a hobby, you should get taxed on any winnings. The nature of the hobby is no different.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-20-2015, 09:59 AM)Benton Wrote: So, yeah, I think if you play 10, win five, you should be taxed on five hands.

This is exceptionally dumb.  Only idiots count their winnings and ignore their losses.  We all know the type - "I won $1000 in Vegas", but they never tell you they lost $5000 trying to win that. And your "hobby" money was already taxed when you earned it.


This is how the tax system ACTUALLY works, quite fairly I might add:
    1) I win $1000 (net of my losses) at the casino, I pay taxes on it.
    2) I lose $1000 at the casino (net of my winnings), the CASINO pays taxes on it.
See how that works?

[StLucieBengal]

(06-20-2015, 07:40 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not surprisingly, I disagree on some of the points there. Most importantly, I disagree on the last one. The author of the article claims that the business activity tax proposed would not allow personnel expenses to be deducted. They weren't mentioned specifically in Paul's statements, so I'd like to see evidence that it has actively been stated they will be removed. If those expenses are not going to be included, then I agree, the tax would be very much like a VAT, though it would not have the final stage at the end consumer level. However, the article makes the claim that this would be a new source of revenue for the government, which is a half truth. It's a replacement. With his tax plan you are losing duties, tariffs, and corporate income tax. All of that to be replaced by Paul's new BAT. When you recognize this as a replacement, the argument at the end of the article becomes unnecessary and really just a biased point of view against the 'socialist evils' of VAT.

I was looking forward to your thoughts. Thanks

[*michaelsean*]

(06-20-2015, 05:49 PM)Benton Wrote: I could enter 10 tournaments costing $1000, win one for $1000 and I'm taxed on it. So I'm $9500 down.

If its a hobby, you should get taxed on any winnings. The nature of the hobby is no different.

Yeah I would double check with the tax man. The govt may owe you some money.

I have a hard time believing you think it should be taxable if you you lose $8000 because in the middle of losing 9 hands you win one.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-20-2015, 08:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah I would double check with the tax man. The govt may owe you some money.

I have a hard time believing you think it should be taxable if you you lose $8000 because in the middle of losing 9 hands you win one.

Correct.  You file a form (forget which one) for winnings over $1000 or thereabouts.  However, this does not prevent you from offsetting losses up to the amount of your winnings.  Of course if you happen to get audited you may have difficulty "proving" your losses (a tournament receipt is easy, but in most other cases you don't have much).  But generally the IRS doesn't bat an eye over nominal winnings offset by losses...but if you've won $5k+ you've offset you definitely want to have records.

And there's no way for the IRS to track winnings on individual hands.  You can win $5k playing poker and nothing even gets filed.  You only have to fill out the IRS form, generally, for tourney winnings or slot jackpots.

The hobby argument is a non-starter, because without income (i.e. losses > than winnings) there's no tax liability. If you have income, as with most anything, you have a tax liability. It doesn't matter if it's from a hobby or not. The only difference is you don't get to offset other income, or carry losses forward, with expenses/losses from a hobby. That's different from a professional gambler, who has detailed records and, presumably, has taxable income more years than not. So the amateur/hobbyist who has net winnings of $10k one year pays taxes, even if he lost $20k the prior year.

[Benton]

(06-20-2015, 08:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah I would double check with the tax man. The govt may owe you some money.

I have a hard time believing you think it should be taxable if you you lose $8000 because in the middle of losing 9 hands you win one.

Why do I think other people should pay for my passtime/entertainment?

I like gambling. I play in hold 'em tournaments when I can, even though I prefer five card and more heads up games. I don't think anyone should pay for when I lose, that's absurd.

[Benton]

(06-20-2015, 08:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah I would double check with the tax man. The govt may owe you some money.

I have a hard time believing you think it should be taxable if you you lose $8000 because in the middle of losing 9 hands you win one.

We're talking in broad terms and then you get specific .Or something.  I'm saying in general. In general I don't think I should be paying for your hobby. You shouldn't be paying for mine.

If you'd like to buy me a new bow, some tips and a new target, I'll send you an address you can send the check to. Otherwise, I don't recall the box on my income taxes that lets me take off a few grand for a new rig.

Likewise, I used to work on cars. I restored a 69 Camaro. All my free time and money went into it. There was no tax break. When I sold it, I claimed the income. A hobby, no tax break.

We're not talking about exemptions made professional gamblers. I'm talking about hobbyists. If you would like to pay for my hobby, I'll gladly accept your donations.  Currently, the government draws a line.

[Benton]

(06-20-2015, 05:49 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: This is exceptionally dumb.  Only idiots count their winnings and ignore their losses.  We all know the type - "I won $1000 in Vegas", but they never tell you they lost $5000 trying to win that. And your "hobby" money was already taxed when you earned it.


This is how the tax system ACTUALLY works, quite fairly I might add:
    1) I win $1000 (net of my losses) at the casino, I pay taxes on it.
    2) I lose $1000 at the casino (net of my winnings), the CASINO pays taxes on it.
See how that works?

:heart:

[StLucieBengal]

(06-21-2015, 12:25 AM)Benton Wrote: We're talking in broad terms and then you get specific .Or something.  I'm saying in general. In general I don't think I should be paying for your hobby. You shouldn't be paying for mine.

If you'd like to buy me a new bow, some tips and a new target, I'll send you an address you can send the check to. Otherwise, I don't recall the box on my income taxes that lets me take off a few grand for a new rig.

Likewise, I used to work on cars. I restored a 69 Camaro. All my free time and money went into it. There was no tax break. When I sold it, I claimed the income. A hobby, no tax break.

We're not talking about exemptions made professional gamblers. I'm talking about hobbyists. If you would like to pay for my hobby, I'll gladly accept your donations.  Currently, the government draws a line.

I have always wanted to get into Archery. Love a bow. I am very envious.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-21-2015, 12:25 AM)Benton Wrote: We're talking in broad terms and then you get specific .Or something.  I'm saying in general. In general I don't think I should be paying for your hobby. You shouldn't be paying for mine.

If you'd like to buy me a new bow, some tips and a new target, I'll send you an address you can send the check to. Otherwise, I don't recall the box on my income taxes that lets me take off a few grand for a new rig.

Likewise, I used to work on cars. I restored a 69 Camaro. All my free time and money went into it. There was no tax break. When I sold it, I claimed the income. A hobby, no tax break.

We're not talking about exemptions made professional gamblers. I'm talking about hobbyists. If you would like to pay for my hobby, I'll gladly accept your donations.  Currently, the government draws a line.

How are you paying for their hobby? If they make a profit they pay tax on it. If they lose, the casino makes a profit and pays tax on it. You arent paying for anything. Are you telling me if you play a cash game of Hold em and bring $1000 in, and lose the $1000 but while playing you won a hand, that you should pay tax on that hand you won?

[Benton]

(06-21-2015, 12:51 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I have always wanted to get into Archery.   Love a bow.  I am very envious.

I recommend it for anyone. Very calming. If you don't clear everything out of your mind, you won't hit the target. 

My plan tomorrow (father's day) is to spend the morning shooting mine, then hit the pool until it's time to grill. A couple hours focusing on the target is a great way to get a clean slate.