The hourly rate you need to afford a two-bedroom apartment in every state

[*bfine32*]

(06-08-2016, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They won't be forced to raise anyone's pay just because people at minimum wage get a raise.  Why would they have to do that?  Wages are based on competition.  Raising the minimum wage will not make wages go up for everyone else.

But it will make the wage go up for everyone that makes below the proposed new rate. BTW, what do you propose the National minimum wage should be?

[StLucieBengal]

It's seems most of you min wage people should be mincome supporters.

It would not affect higher wages at all like messing with the min wage does

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 03:50 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: It would also increase prices on things like housing since people with minimum wage will bid up the price of housing. 

Again the increase would be so small it would have no effect on the market in general.  In fact I would bet that very few people making minimum wage are paying for housing without government assistance right now. The only difference is that more individuals would be paying for their housing instead of taxpayers footing the bill for them.

The difference between $15K a year and $20K a year will have zero effect on housing costs because those people can only afford the bare minimum and most people living in bare minimum housing get government assistance.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 03:52 PM)Griever Wrote: the only way they can win is if they do something about being stuck in the dead in job and finding something better

But no matter how hard everyone works there will still be the same percentage of low paying jobs.

If every single person in the United states went to med school there would still be people needed to cook, clean, and do other low paying jobs.  And they would still get paid minimum wage.

You can not blame people working minimum wage jobs for the percentage of jobs that pay minimum wage.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But it will make the wage go up for everyone that makes below the proposed new rate.

Still only a small percentage of total wages paid goes to these people.

[Griever]

but if you are 30+ years old, still working minimum wage at mcdonalds, something is wrong

i have only a few semesters of schooling, no degree, but im in a position where a bachelors is recommended

hell the wife is in a position where a degree is a requirement, but because shes smart, worked her way up, and learned things on the job, she got promotions despite not going to school

if people wanna work at mcdonalds, thats fine. should they be making more than 7.25 (or whatever minimum wage is) yeah, a couple bucks more. but once the pay gets up there, job skills are required and thats something they wont have if they are content and settle with working for minimum wage

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It looks like Fred wants people making $15.00 now to lose if minimum wage is raise to $15.00 an hour.

You see, someone works for a company for 10 years, gets to $15.00 an hour and all of a sudden, minimum wage is raised to $15.00 an hour and that person now gets to start all over again. That is a plan that will work...right?

If minimum wage is raised to $15.00 an hour then everyone making minimum wage and above will have to have their hourly raised by the equivalent. So, someone who makes $15.00 an hour now will have to have their hourly raised to $22.75 per hour or become poverty stricken and start over again.

No matter what minimum wage is, it will always be minimum wage and never be enough. You could make minimum wage $1,000,000,000,000,000.00 an hour and guess what? It's still minimum wage, the lowest hourly on the pay scale.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:23 PM)Griever Wrote: but if you are 30+ years old, still working minimum wage at mcdonalds, something is wrong

i have only a few semesters of schooling, no degree, but im in a position where a bachelors is recommended

hell the wife is in a position where a degree is a requirement, but because shes smart, worked her way up, and learned things on the job, she got promotions despite not going to school

if people wanna work at mcdonalds, thats fine. should they be making more than 7.25 (or whatever minimum wage is) yeah, a couple bucks more. but once the pay gets up there, job skills are required and thats something they wont have if they are content and settle with working for minimum wage

I agree with all of this, but it has nothing to do with the debate about minimum wage.

The fact is that we are going to have a certain portion of the population working for minimum wager.  It doesn't matter if they are just starting out and on their way up or if they happen to be among the bottom 10% in IQ or have some other physical handicap that keeps them from getting any better. They all should still be entitled to a living wage.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They won't be forced to raise anyone's pay just because people at minimum wage get a raise.  Why would they have to do that?  Wages are based on competition.  Raising the minimum wage will not make wages go up for everyone else.

So if a manager/worker is making $10/hr and then min wage becomes $10/hr don't you think that person would look for a min wage job that was easier/had less responsibilities? Forcing companies to raise the rate for that job. Then it has a domino effect going up the chain.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Again the increase would be so small it would have no effect on the market in general.  In fact I would bet that very few people making minimum wage are paying for housing without government assistance right now. The only difference is that more individuals would be paying for their housing instead of taxpayers footing the bill for them.

The difference between $15K a year and $20K a year will have zero effect on housing costs because those people can only afford the bare minimum and most people living in bare minimum housing get government assistance.

Do you really think that land lords are dumb enough to not raise housing prices to where they would be getting paid by the government and the renter still? If someone is paying 30% of their paycheck a month in rent and the government is paying the rest of the bill you know that the land lords will increase the amount to make the person be on government assistance, and still take 30% of their paycheck.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:30 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: It looks like Fred wants people making $15.00 now to lose if minimum wage is raise to $15.00 an hour.

You see, someone works for a company for 10 years, gets to $15.00 an hour and all of a sudden, minimum wage is raised to $15.00 an hour and that person now gets to start all over again. That is a plan that will work...right?

Yes.  Why would it not work?  

Wages are based on competition.  Raising minimum wage does not change that in any way.  What makes you think it would?

[BigPapaKain]

(06-08-2016, 04:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  Why would it not work?  

Wages are based on competition.  Raising minimum wage does not change that in any way.  What makes you think it would?

I spend a lot of time in the air and around hazardous chemicals. If the burger jockey down the street starts making as much as I did starting out, why the hell would I stay at my current job?

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:36 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Do you really think that land lords are dumb enough to not raise housing prices to where they would be getting paid by the government and the renter still? If someone is paying 30% of their paycheck a month in rent and the government is paying the rest of the bill you know that the land lords will increase the amount that the house is to still make the person be on government assistance, and still take 30% of their paycheck.

Government assistance is based on income.  As the renters income goes up the government assistance goes down.  The landlord sees no difference in income.  If the landlord raise the rent then the renters can not afford it because their government assistance has gone down.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:41 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I spend a lot of time in the air and around hazardous chemicals. If the burger jockey down the street starts making as much as I did starting out, why the hell would I stay at my current job?

Because you make more money at your current job.

There are a limited number of jobs.  Changing minimum wage will not change that.  So people will work at the jobs they can get the same as they do right now.  Raising minimum wage does not mean there will be millions of new jobs at burger joints.  Nothing will change.

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 04:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  Why would it not work?  

Wages are based on competition.  Raising minimum wage does not change that in any way.  What makes you think it would?

How is this competition? There was no competition between the guy who worked 10 years to get to 15 dollars and the new hire making the same thing. This is actually the opposite of competition. What will really happen is the guy making 15 before will demand more and that is how we end back up in the exact same position but with inflation.

For the third time. Minimum wage will never be a livable standard, no matter what the number it does not matter. The floor of the economic ladder will always yield a poor class. You can not eliminate a poor class. Capitalism does not allow for there to be no poor class. The only thing you can do is try to make the conditions of your poor better than everyone elses. Raising wages doesn't do that because that new wage just becomes the new floor and cost of living adjusts to reflect that. You are better off slowly inching it up to keep pace with inflation, but to use non wage subsidies like housing vouchers to offset the income.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because you make more money at your current job.

There are a limited number of jobs.  Changing minimum wage will not change that.  So people will work at the jobs they can get the same as they do right now.  Raising minimum wage does not mean there will be millions of new jobs at burger joints.  Nothing will change.

So you think they would keep a high school dropout over someone with a college education?

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Government assistance is based on income.  As the renters income goes up the government assistance goes down.  The landlord sees no difference in income.  If the landlord raise the rent then the renters can not afford it because their government assistance has gone down.

Yes, once the new minimum wage increases the poverty line then the government will have to assist them with housing.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:49 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: So you think they would keep a high school dropout over someone with a college education?

You think people with college degrees are going to leave jobs that offer an upward career path to work at a burger joint?

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:52 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Yes, once the new minimum wage increases the poverty line then the government will have to assist them with housing.

Raising minimum wage would not increase the poverty line.

[Benton]

(06-08-2016, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are a limited number of jobs.  Changing minimum wage will not change that.  So people will work at the jobs they can get the same as they do right now.  Raising minimum wage does not mean there will be millions of new jobs at burger joints.  Nothing will change.

Disagreed with the bold. The number of jobs is not a stagnant number. It changes constantly. That's like saying "there's a limited number or ounces in the ocean." At a given point in time, yeah. Five minutes later, no.