The hourly rate you need to afford a two-bedroom apartment in every state

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 04:56 PM)Benton Wrote: Disagreed with the bold. The number of jobs is not a stagnant number. It changes constantly. That's like saying "there's a limited number or ounces in the ocean." At a given point in time, yeah. Five minutes later, no.

Yep

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:49 PM)Au165 Wrote:  What will really happen is the guy making 15 before will demand more and that is how we end back up in the exact same position but with inflation.

If you can get paid more just by demanding more then why don't you do that right now?

It doesn't work that way.  Wages are based on competition between businesses.  Businesses pay what the market demands.  if the minimum wage applies to all businesses then people will not be able to just walk away from a job to get better pay from another company.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 04:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You think people with college degrees are going to leave jobs that offer an upward career path to work at a burger joint?

If they're paying similarly. Which they would in your scenario since people above the minimum wage wouldn't have their pay increased.

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 04:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you can get paid more just by demanding more then why don't you do that right now?

It doesn't work that way.  Wages are based on competition between businesses.  Businesses pay what the market demands.  if the minimum wage applies to all businesses then people will not be able to just walk away from a job to get better pay from another company.

They demand more by leaving. If I am not making 15$ working a job that requires some skill and stress why wouldn't I leave knowing literally any job I get will pay the same? Your delusional if you don't think it will push all wages higher? Your all for competition among businesses, yet you want to eliminate the competition for higher pay by just giving it to people. That is interesting to me.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:56 PM)Benton Wrote: Disagreed with the bold. The number of jobs is not a stagnant number. It changes constantly. That's like saying "there's a limited number or ounces in the ocean." At a given point in time, yeah. Five minutes later, no.

The number of jobs may change, but the number does not change based on how hard everyone works or how much education they get.

Even if everyone worked twice as hard and went to school twice as long there would still be the same number of minimum wage jobs. 

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 04:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Raising minimum wage would not increase the poverty line.

It would increase the $ amount of the poverty line due to inflation.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-08-2016, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because you make more money at your current job.

There are a limited number of jobs.  Changing minimum wage will not change that.  So people will work at the jobs they can get the same as they do right now.  Raising minimum wage does not mean there will be millions of new jobs at burger joints.  Nothing will change.

True enough. But if I weigh out the long term side effects of my current job versus the long term effects at McDonald's, I'm taking the loss and jumping ship.

[Beaker]

A large part of a companies expenses are its employee wages. All companies have minimum margins of profit they have to operate at. If the wages go up, the company increases the price of its product to retain its profit margin. In the end the person making minimum wage is now making more...but now everything else will cost more. So the low income wage earners still struggle with making ends meet.

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The number of jobs may change, but the number does not change based on how hard everyone works or how much education they get.

Even if everyone worked twice as hard and went to school twice as long there would still be the same number of minimum wage jobs. 

Well that isn't technically true, because as technology advances from all that gained intelligence we will continue to do away with minimum wage jobs. See McDonald's testing out ordering kiosks. There is a fight to be fought to get it up slightly and maintain with inflation, but if they push too hard they are going to end up losing more than is gained. When it becomes cheaper to buy technology to do no skill jobs then the no skill jobs will disappear at a quicker rate.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 04:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: They demand more by leaving. If I am not making 15$ working a job that requires some skill and stress why wouldn't I leave knowing literally any job I get will pay the same? 

Because the number of low paying jobs is not going to increase.  Everyone will not be able to leave their jobs and get jobs flipping burgers because there will not suddenly be millions of more jobs flipping burgers.

[CKwi88]

While I agree with the sentiment, the numbers seem wonky. Cost of living can vary wildly within a state.

For example. The apartment I rent out here in CT is 935 a month for two bedrooms. The same amount of space if I were to look in Fairfield county or a town like Simsbury could be anywhere from double to triple that.

Living where I do means I have a longer commute to work and have to deal with northern rednecks, but I get paid for my commute and hang out around this board so it's cool.

But yes, I do subscribe to the belief that if you work 40 hours a week, you should be able to life in relative comfort.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 05:00 PM)Au165 Wrote: Well that isn't technically true, because as technology advances from all that gained intelligence we will continue to do away with minimum wage jobs. See McDonald's testing out ordering kiosks. There is a fight to be fought to get it up slightly and maintain with inflation, but if they push too hard they are going to end up losing more than is gained. When it becomes cheaper to buy technology to do no skill jobs then the no skill jobs will disappear at a quicker rate.

But that has zero to do with minimum wage.

technology will continue to put people out of work no matter what minimum wage is.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because the number of low paying jobs is not going to increase.  Everyone will not be able to leave their jobs and get jobs flipping burgers because there will not suddenly be millions of more jobs flipping burgers.

So, you're saying there will be mass unemployment for people w/o higher education. Since all of the people with higher educations will be working at the burger joints.

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because the number of low paying jobs is not going to increase.  Everyone will not be able to leave their jobs and get jobs flipping burgers because there will not suddenly be millions of more jobs flipping burgers.

Without knowing how many people sit at the current level of what this mythical wage would be it is hard to predict how many jobs would be needed. What will happen though is these better equipped people will take the jobs from the ones who are only skilled to fit the minimum wage roles leaving those people jobless.

Honest question, can you not see any negative impact on the economy from raising minimum wage?

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 05:05 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: So, you're saying there will be mass unemployment for people w/o higher education. Since all of the people with higher educations will be working at the burger joints.

They will get the burger jobs making the same as they did at their other jobs and the people who used to work those jobs will be jobless. They are already high turnover jobs so being over qualified doesn't matter. I'd higher the most qualified if the average person only stays 6 months anyways.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 05:00 PM)Beaker Wrote: A large part of a companies expenses are its employee wages. All companies have minimum margins of profit they have to operate at. If the wages go up, the company increases the price of its product to retain its profit margin. In the end the person making minimum wage is now making more...but now everything else will cost more. So the low income wage earners still struggle with making ends meet.

This is not true.

The price of goods may go up 1 or 2 percent, but the people getting a pay raise from $7.50 to $10.00 per hour will be getting a 33% increase in pay.  So it will be a HUGE benefit to the low income wage earners.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 05:06 PM)Au165 Wrote: No they will get the burger jobs making the same as they did at their other jobs and the people who used to work those jobs will be jobless. They are already high turnover jobs so being over qualified doesn't matter. I'd higher the most qualified if the average person only stays 6 months anyways.

That's what I said, isn't it?

[Au165]

(06-08-2016, 05:07 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: That's what I said, isn't it?

Sorry, that was me backing you up but I see how it came across that way.. Ha, probably should have quoted fred but it was in agreement with you.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 05:06 PM)Au165 Wrote: No they will get the burger jobs making the same as they did at their other jobs and the people who used to work those jobs will be jobless. They are already high turnover jobs so being over qualified doesn't matter. I'd higher the most qualified if the average person only stays 6 months anyways.

Highly qualified people are not going to work at burger joints with no upward career path.  

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not true.

The price of goods may go up 1 or 2 percent, but the people getting a pay raise from $7.50 to $10.00 per hour will be getting a 33% increase in pay.  So it will be a HUGE benefit to the low income wage earners.

That's with the silly assumption that everyone else wouldn't have their wages go up.