The hourly rate you need to afford a two-bedroom apartment in every state

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 07:56 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: $2.50 would. That would be about triple the biggest minimum wage increase ever.

It would not force them to raise wages on other positions.

The idea that people are going to leave serious jobs with a future just to work for minimum wage the rest of their lives is ridiculous.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2016, 06:48 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: When I was in school back in 2005, I had a Co-Op job writing Java for a insurance company and they paid me $14.50 per hour.

Now, imagine that same Co-Op job writing Java and minimum wage is $15.00 an hour. I think the insurance company would cut the program or have to pay college students $22.00 to $25.00 an hour just to get them in there. 

Co-Op jobs are a fantastic thing for college students since they actually teach real life application and how real life work is. Would raising the minimum wage close this expierience off to students?

So if you were given the choice between an intern position that would teach you a valuable skill for future employment you would pass it up in order to work at McDonalds for the exact same pay?

This makes no sense.

[Brownshoe]

(06-08-2016, 11:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It would not force them to raise wages on other positions.

The idea that people are going to leave serious jobs with a future just to work for minimum wage the rest of their lives is ridiculous.

It doesn't have to be a serious job. It just could be a job that used to be paid $2-5 more an hour than minimum wage, but if you bring minimum wage up to that job then people will leave it for the easier min wage job. It's just human nature. That's why companies would be forced to pay more for those positions. It's kind of like asking if you want an easy job or a hard job, but both of them will pay the same. 99% of people will take the easy job that pays the same. Hell most people will take the easier job even if it's less money as long as it's close.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2016, 12:35 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: It doesn't have to be a serious job. It just could be a job that used to be paid $2-5 more an hour than minimum wage, but if you bring minimum wage up to that job then people will leave it for the easier min wage job. It's just human nature. That's why companies would be forced to pay more for those positions. It's kind of like asking if you want an easy job or a hard job, but both of them will pay the same. 99% of people will take the easy job that pays the same. Hell most people will take the easier job even if it's less money as long as it's close.

But there will not suddenly be millions of new minimum wage jobs for all these people to take.

The number of jobs will not change.  So if the same number of people work the same number of jobs will be filled.  People would rather work a little harder AND MAKE MORE MONEY than not work at all and make NOTHING.  If people used to work at McDonalds for $7.50 an hour then they will certainly work somewhere else for $10 an hour.

It is ridiculopus to think that people will justb quit their jobs and stay at home if they don't get a raise.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(06-08-2016, 11:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So if you were given the choice between an intern position that would teach you a valuable skill for future employment you would pass it up in order to work at McDonalds for the exact same pay?

This makes no sense.

At this insurance company, they had two programs. When you go out and interview for the Co-Op, you take a test which rates your knowledge of Java code. If you pass with a certain grade on this test, you are offered $14.75 per hour to work there. If you didn't pass, you were offered $8.50 per hour to work there. I know of not one single person who didn't pass that stuck around to make the $1.75 over minimum wage. They went to a different Co-Op which would offer more than the $8.50 an hour.

If this insurance company wants the best working for them and the best gets paid the same as those who don't know basic Java, they will not get the best or those who can actually do the work they need done. The best will go where there is more money or work an entry level easy job that takes no energy and just take on extra classes to get through school faster.

I guess the insurance can try to get the best to intern for them by offering minimum wage, but they will fail. 

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2016, 01:59 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: At this insurance company, they had two programs. When you go out and interview for the Co-Op, you take a test which rates your knowledge of Java code. If you pass with a certain grade on this test, you are offered $14.75 per hour to work there. If you didn't pass, you were offered $8.50 per hour to work there. I know of not one single person who didn't pass that stuck around to make the $1.75 over minimum wage. They went to a different Co-Op which would offer more than the $8.50 an hour. 

You still are not getting my point.  The people making $14.75 an hour were not doing the same work as the people making $8.50 an hour.

If you passed the test you would have taken taken the job even if you could have made the same money at McDonalds because the co-op position offered you a valuable learning experience.

[Rotobeast]

(06-09-2016, 01:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is ridiculopus to think that people will justb quit their jobs and stay at home if they don't get a raise.

I killed a ridiculopus with a stick once.

[Benton]

(06-08-2016, 11:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So if you were given the choice between an intern position that would teach you a valuable skill for future employment you would pass it up in order to work at McDonalds for the exact same pay?

This makes no sense.

I run into that problem with our entry level positions.

I can pay somebody slightly more than minimum wage to work nights and weekends, usually part-time with no benefits. Depending on the job, they'll have to learn a few different computer programs and, if it's editorial, be able to write and take photos. And all on a deadline, so I'm going to be coming to them constantly asking why they aren't done yet.

Or... they can work at Wal-Mart, get a discount and regular breaks, and make about the same money.

What you say makes sense to someone looking ahead or my age looking back (I started making less than minimum wage considering the hours worked and it's turned into a good career... but it's 15 years later). But a lot of the people walking through the door aren't thinking about careers, they're thinking about their next car payment and doing as little as possible to make it.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-09-2016, 11:56 AM)Benton Wrote: I run into that problem with our entry level positions.

I can pay somebody slightly more than minimum wage to work nights and weekends, usually part-time with no benefits. Depending on the job, they'll have to learn a few different computer programs and, if it's editorial, be able to write and take photos. And all on a deadline, so I'm going to be coming to them constantly asking why they aren't done yet.

Or... they can work at Wal-Mart, get a discount and regular breaks, and make about the same money.

What you say makes sense to someone looking ahead or my age looking back (I started making less than minimum wage considering the hours worked and it's turned into a good career... but it's 15 years later). But a lot of the people walking through the door aren't thinking about careers, they're thinking about their next car payment and doing as little as possible to make it.

Are these the people you want anyway?  Are these people that are career oriented anyway?  I wager they are not and in the end would only be detrimental to you had you hired them.

[Benton]

(06-09-2016, 12:03 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Are these the people you want anyway?  Are these people that are career oriented anyway?  I wager they are not and in the end would only be detrimental to you had you hired them.

In my experience (so take it for what it's worth) entry level folks move on in 4-6 months. Either they don't care, they're so inept that by then they've been let go, or (rarely) they do really well and move up or out.

The problem is, it takes 3-4 months before they get trained.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2016, 11:56 AM)Benton Wrote: I run into that problem with our entry level positions.

I can pay somebody slightly more than minimum wage to work nights and weekends, usually part-time with no benefits. Depending on the job, they'll have to learn a few different computer programs and, if it's editorial, be able to write and take photos. And all on a deadline, so I'm going to be coming to them constantly asking why they aren't done yet.

Or... they can work at Wal-Mart, get a discount and regular breaks, and make about the same money.

What you say makes sense to someone looking ahead or my age looking back (I started making less than minimum wage considering the hours worked and it's turned into a good career... but it's 15 years later). But a lot of the people walking through the door aren't thinking about careers, they're thinking about their next car payment and doing as little as possible to make it.

Still doesn't change the fact that there will not suddenly be a lot more jobs at Walmart for all of these people to take.

And if they do leave for Walmart jobs that will just open up their old jobs for other people to fill.

If we raise minimum wage people will still be filling the same number of jobs.  No one will be able to demand a raise because if they leave their job the company will just hire someone else to replace them.  There is no way that all the high skill people are siuddenly just going to give up their careers to work in dead end jobs, but even if they do they will just be opening up positions for other people.

[Brownshoe]

(06-09-2016, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that there will not suddenly be a lot more jobs at Walmart for all of these people to take.

And if they do leave for Walmart jobs that will just open up their old jobs for other people to fill.

If we raise minimum wage people will still be filling the same number of jobs.  No one will be able to demand a raise because if they leave their job the company will just hire someone else to replace them.  There is no way that all the high skill people are siuddenly just going to give up their careers to work in dead end jobs, but even if they do they will just be opening up positions for other people.

Most employers would rather just give people pay raises than to retrain someone. They will get a pay raise.

[*Nately120*]

As soon as the minimum wage hike goes into effect all the people I know who moved out of our small hometown are going to quit our degree-requiring careers in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Youngstown and swarm the 5 fast food joints in town.

But seriously, anyone who would willingly leave a skilled profession to flip burgers should probably vacate his post, anyways.

[Au165]

(06-09-2016, 03:13 PM)Nately120 Wrote: As soon as the minimum wage hike goes into effect all the people I know who moved out of our small hometown are going to quit our degree-requiring careers in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Youngstown and swarm the 5 fast food joints in town.

But seriously, anyone who would willingly leave a skilled profession to flip burgers should probably vacate his post, anyways.

For some reason people keep thinking that between $10/hr-$15/hr there are a ton of skilled jobs. Yes, they require some skills but a lot of these, I'll refer to as "lower" skilled jobs, required more on job training than degrees. These people very possibly could leave to go work at "no" skill jobs for less stress and similar money. Also all minimum wage or "no" skill jobs aren't burger joint jobs as it has been painted in this thread. I think the problem is people are assuming either you are "No" Skilled labor or a degreed person without realizing there is a whole level in between that is really what will be affected.

Like I said though, I think a move to $10/hr is still low enough as to not push things too badly as that tends to be the top of the "No " skill positions and start of the "lower" skilled positions. If we start getting into the $15/Hr we start the top of the "no" skill and bottom of the degreed jobs. At that point you have a hard time justifying to people spending money on a degree going forward when people without make the same with no debt to start with. Before Fred comes in the with the upward career path argument, yes there may be more in the degreed path but for many the lack of student loans may trump that.

[Beaker]

(06-08-2016, 05:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If there are currently 5 million people working full time for minimum wage (a number someone else posted) then raising their pay from $7.50 an hour to $10 per hour would only increase national total income by 2 tenths of one percent.  

It just is not going to make that much difference.  Labor is only a percentage of total costs, and wages earned by minimum wage earners is only a very small percentage of labor costs.

Your not looking at wages on a National scale. You are looking at them on an individual company scale. Employee salaries and wages usually make up the single largest percentage of a company's expenses. If you increase wages 33%....and wages make up say 60% of a company's expenses...then they are going to raise their cost of goods sold to maintain their current profit margin.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2016, 04:12 PM)Beaker Wrote: Your not looking at wages on a National scale. You are looking at them on an individual company scale. Employee salaries and wages usually make up the single largest percentage of a company's expenses. If you increase wages 33%....and wages make up say 60% of a company's expenses...then they are going to raise their cost of goods sold to maintain their current profit margin.

Actually labor costs are rarely the top expense for corporations.  this is only true in the service industry.  In retail sales overhead and inventory are the largest expense.  In manufacturing it is material and overhead.

And just because a minimum wage earner gets a 33% raise that does not mean a manger making $60K a year is going to get a $20K raise.  Minimum wage earners do not account for a major portion of all labor costs.

[Sovereign Nation]

All this talk about raising the minimum wage and it's pros vs cons and yet no one seems to want to ask this....


Why don't we try to lower the cost of living?

If you didn't have to spend so much for milk and bread then that 7.25 goes a lot farther.

Not only that but why aren't some people willing to work 2 full time jobs? I understand NOT everyone will be able to do so, however there are many men that could actually work 2 jobs and 80 hours a week. After finishing at BK go across the street to McDonalds. It isn't like they have a non compete contract clause or anything. 7.25 x 2 would be 14.50.

If the cost of living were decreased then 14.50 would be more than enough to survive off of.

To me, when I saw this post originally, I thought that the main issue isn't that the minimum wage is too low, but the cost of living is too high.

[GMDino]

(06-11-2016, 09:22 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: All this talk about raising the minimum wage and it's pros vs cons and yet no one seems to want to ask this....


Why don't we try to lower the cost of living?

If you didn't have to spend so much for milk and bread then that 7.25 goes a lot farther.

Not only that but why aren't some people willing to work 2 full time jobs?  I understand NOT everyone will be able to do so, however there are many men that could actually work 2 jobs and 80 hours a week.  After finishing at BK go across the street to McDonalds.  It isn't like they have a non compete contract clause or anything.  7.25 x 2 would be 14.50.

If the cost of living were decreased then 14.50 would be more than enough to survive off of.

To me, when I saw this post originally, I thought that the main issue isn't that the minimum wage is too low, but the cost of living is too high.

Ah...the American dream.

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 09:31 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ah...the American dream.

Yeah, hard work to accomplish the goals of being wealthy. 

Not just give it to me for free.

[GMDino]

(06-11-2016, 09:40 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Yeah, hard work to accomplish the goals of being wealthy. 

Not just give it to me for free.

Yeah, wanting to be paid for the work you do so you don't have to work two jobs to "make it".


Make America Great again!

Just not with unions and living wages and benefits.