The 2012 draft was a masterclass by the front office

[Hammerstripes]

Anytime you get more than 2 starters out of a draft it's a good draft.

And I'm not talking about guys that stat that need to be upgraded down the road. If you can add 3 QUALITY, long term guys every year, you'd have the best roster in football.

2012 was an outstanding draft.

[djs7685]

(08-19-2015, 03:52 PM)tman Wrote: I must have missed the pro bowl Zeitler and Iloka played in..

I guess you also missed the part where the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest voted by on by fans (doh!) to send players on a nice vacation to play a scrimmage game.

Nothing to see here, move along.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-19-2015, 03:53 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I wasn't specifically talking about the Detroit draft about starters, but in general. Just because a player is starting doesn't necessarily mean they're good, ya know? I guess I'm just surprised that it seems like a couple people don't view ours as a great draft and just see it as standard for us now.

If Dre Kirk ends up being a legitimate #1 CB, this draft could go down as the best in Bengals history. Let's look at it this way...

Best case (realistic) scenario we're looking at...

Top 5 G
Top 5/10 S
Top 16 #1 CB
Top 16 #2 WR
Top 16 slot receiver
Rotational DT that made a second contract

Worst case (realistic) scenario we're looking at....

Top 5 G
Top 10 S
Mediocre #2 CB
Injury plagued #2 WR that still had a 10 TD year
Top 16 slot receiver
Rotational DT that had 1 year of play time and got cut after 3 years

So, worst case scenario, that's still pretty impressive IMO. Best case scenario we're looking at one of the best drafts in the NFL of the past decade. I'm not a big homie homeroo, but this draft was really good.

I only singled out Detroit for an example. I didn't feel like sorting through every team you listed. I agree though that starting doesn't necessarily mean a player is good. By the same token, we have players from the 2012 who haven't started much (if at all) and we're assuming they're going to be great. 

Of the 6 players you're talking about:


DreKirk: Spent first year injured. He's had his moments as a 4th CB over the last couple years. He really flashed serious promise last year, but we're going into year 4 which is the final year of his rookie contract. So this is the only year where we get serious value from him. His 5th year option will be for 7.5 million. No one knows how he'll fare in a starting role. He's going to be the guy now, rather than a 4th option/dime back. I'm optimistic, but we can't say he's been a smashing success thus far in his career.

Zeitler: Love Zeitler, but top 5? Idk. It was definitely a good pick and he's definitely a good player though.

Iloka: Again, I love Iloka, but I don't know that he's top 5 at his position yet. Top 10? Maybe. I want to see more, but again I'm optimistic. He was great for us last year.

MLJ: We've essentially gotten 1 year out of MLJ. Everyone brings up the 10 TD's, but who knows if he can repeat that number? He had 1 massive game against the Jets (8-122-4) that bloated his stats. This is the final year of both MLJ and Sanu's rookie contracts. Most don't think we'll keep both. Last I heard, MLJ is behind Sanu on the depth chart, fwiw.

Sanu: He's had his moments with trick plays. He had some solid production while AJ was out, but he was among the league leaders in drops.

Thompson: Honestly, Thompson is just a guy. He had 0 sacks after Geno went down and he stepped in. He's probably on the bubble this year, and he should be.

I know that I'm coming off as negative, but I'm only trying to provide an alternative point of view with these players. There's a lot to be positive about, but DreKirk, MLJ and Sanu still have question marks. 

[BritishBengal]

(08-19-2015, 04:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I only singled out Detroit for an example. I didn't feel like sorting through every team you listed. I agree though that starting doesn't necessarily mean a player is good. By the same token, we have players from the 2012 who haven't started much (if at all) and we're assuming they're going to be great. 

Of the 6 players you're talking about:


DreKirk: Spent first year injured. He's had his moments as a 4th CB over the last couple years. He really flashed serious promise last year, but we're going into year 4 which is the final year of his rookie contract. So this is the only year where we get serious value from him. His 5th year option will be for 7.5 million. No one knows how he'll fare in a starting role. He's going to be the guy now, rather than a 4th option/dime back. I'm optimistic, but we can't say he's been a smashing success thus far in his career.

Zeitler: Love Zeitler, but top 5? Idk. It was definitely a good pick and he's definitely a good player though.

Iloka: Again, I love Iloka, but I don't know that he's top 5 at his position yet. Top 10? Maybe. I want to see more, but again I'm optimistic. He was great for us last year.

MLJ: We've essentially gotten 1 year out of MLJ. Everyone brings up the 10 TD's, but who knows if he can repeat that number? He had 1 massive game against the Jets (8-122-4) that bloated his stats. This is the final year of both MLJ and Sanu's rookie contracts. Most don't think we'll keep both. Last I heard, MLJ is behind Sanu on the depth chart, fwiw.

Sanu: He's had his moments with trick plays. He had some solid production while AJ was out, but he was among the league leaders in drops.

Thompson: Honestly, Thompson is just a guy. He had 0 sacks after Geno went down and he stepped in. He's probably on the bubble this year, and he should be.

I know that I'm coming off as negative, but I'm only trying to provide an alternative point of view with these players. There's a lot to be positive about, but DreKirk, MLJ and Sanu still have question marks. 

And I totally understand the negative slant, it is valid too. 

What I was more trying to allude to was what was done in terms of the trades. At very least we turned old and or declining players into fresh draft picks, almost all have which have contributed and over half start. It's a fantastic piece of value. When you consider this franchise has been to 4 playoffs irrespective of dropping out first round, it's a good achievement. 

I am sure I am not alone in being a bit comme ci comme ca about that years draft. Didn't love the first round and didn't like us passing on a lot of good 'big name' talent later on. I am happy that I think I have been corrected on that initial assumption. Even if it wasn't a slam dunk draft it was certainly a C+ or B. That may yet change this year with people like Dre, MLJ and Illoka been given the chance to take the next step.

[GarbageDisposal]

This thread speaks to a tendency to overrate our own players because we know them, because they're "ours," whereas if they were on another team they wouldn't be notable or getting such high marks. Let me explain. Zeitler and Iloka are really the only two "gems" in that. Kirkpatrick isn't a bust yet, but he's actually been pretty below average overall and hasn't lived up to his first round status yet. Marvin Jones had one good year (or should I say game) but has been perpetually injuried. When you factor in a total bust 2nd rounder whose claim to fame is a sick daughter, it's not looking nearly so rosy. Also, the Bengals have a tendency/necessity to keep their draft picks around a LOT longer/more often than other teams, since we're allergic to F.A. This could give the impression guys like Brandon Thompson are "good" even though they, too, have shown relatively squat.

Again, these players aren't really that much better than others around the league. Even the two "crown jewels" are just solid contributors and not Pro Bowlers, all pros or anything. Let's wait and see but as of now it only seems like your run-of-the-mill decent to good draft class at best. Of course Dre K. looks like a HOF'er in training camp practices, but we can't just go by projections.

[djs7685]

(08-19-2015, 05:50 PM)GarbageDisposal Wrote: This thread speaks to a tendency to overrate our own players because we know them, because they're "ours," whereas if they were on another team they wouldn't be notable or getting such high marks. Let me explain. Zeitler and Iloka are really the only two "gems" in that. Kirkpatrick isn't a bust yet, but he's actually been pretty below average overall and hasn't lived up to his first round status yet. Marvin Jones had one good year (or should I say game) but has been perpetually injuried. When you factor in a total bust 2nd rounder whose claim to fame is a sick daughter, it's not looking nearly so rosy. Also, the Bengals have a tendency/necessity to keep their draft picks around a LOT longer/more often than other teams, since we're allergic to F.A. This could give the impression guys like Brandon Thompson are "good" even though they, too, have shown relatively squat.

Again, these players aren't really that much better than others around the league. Even the two "crown jewels" are just solid contributors and not Pro Bowlers, all pros or anything. Let's wait and see but as of now it only seems like your run-of-the-mill decent to good draft class at best. Of course Dre K. looks like a HOF'er in training camp practices, but we can't just go by projections.

The fact that you said Marvin Jones had one good game and that you're slighting Iloka and Zeitler for not winning a league popularity contest speaks to a tendency of some to underrate our own players because we know them.

The grass is always greener, ya know?

[GarbageDisposal]

(08-19-2015, 07:52 PM)djs7685 Wrote: The fact that you said Marvin Jones had one good game and that you're slighting Iloka and Zeitler for not winning a league popularity contest speaks to a tendency of some to underrate our own players because we know them.

The grass is always greener, ya know?

He had 4 of his TD in one game against the hapless Jets who gave up and let us roll up like 45 points on them. Made both his & Andy's stats look way better than they really deserved to be. Don't take something in parentheses out of context lol. I complimented Zeitler and Iloka...those two can play...just saying they're not top-shelf players so far by any means. Potentially? Sure. Thus far? The numbers don't bear that out. Zeitler is close but Iloka is only a good player pretty much. So 2 successful draft picks is nothing to really write home about, much less a "masterclass."

[Wes Mantooth]

I'm sorry, I don't see how that's anything great (yet). I'm not sure it's even "good". It seems pretty average. Let me explain:

Right off the bat, lets start with Dre Kirk. Is that a great pick as of right now? No. Is it a good pick as of right now? Not in my opinion. Could it be? Sure. It could be good or great. But as of right now the guy has started 5 games in 3 years. You can bring up the fact that he walked into a loaded situation and that's all well and good, but you still can't say it's been proven to be anything special. You can argue it could be all you want, but right now, at best, it's an incomplete or a pick with potential.

Zeitler. Best pick of the draft, no doubt. It is "masterclass" to hit on a first round guard? No, not really. If you wanna say it was a good pick, fair enough. But hard to label hitting on first round guard as great scouting.

Still. Terrible pick.

Thompson. Not a good pick.

Sanu. Sorry, but he's played pretty much like a 3rd round WR. It's done some good things, not a bad pick. The guy has averaged 450 yards and 3.75 TD's a season. His career year was for 790, and only came because he saw injuries two the guys ahead of him and a starting TE. I'd say this pick falls somewhere between C- and C+ right now. (This could go up of course, he just needs to do more before I'm awarded a gold star)

Orson Charles. Terrible pick.

Sean Prater. Not even worth my time.

Marvin Jones. GOOD pick. When I see more than 1 year of results I could be open to calling it a great pick. Nonetheless, very good value so far.

George Iloka. Very good pick. Best production next to Zeitler. Great value here. Kudos.

Boom Herron. Not even worth my time.

Again, the terminology use was "masterclass". Is it really? Realllllyyyy???? In a year with an extra 1st and 3rd? With bust in the 2nd and 3rd round?

I'm sorry, you can argue it's good if you want. But great? Imagine reading this on another team's board with players with similar production. You'd be rolling your eyes. I know I'm just the negative Nancy, but c'mon. Seriously, look at this list again and tell me I'm wrong.

Fwiw, I give it a current grade of B-. If Dre blows up and Jones or Sanu sustained their career high production then I could see that turning into a B+ or A+. Too hard for me to give it an A with Still, Thompson and Charles.

[TGISunday]

This is vintage board activity.

Arguing about nothing.

The Seinfeld of message boards.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-19-2015, 09:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm sorry, you can argue it's good if you want.  But great?  Imagine reading this on another team's board with players with similar production.  You'd be rolling your eyes.  I know I'm just the negative Nancy, but c'mon.  Seriously, look at this list again and tell me I'm wrong.  

Fwiw, I  give it a current grade of B-.  If Dre blows up and Jones or Sanu sustained their career high production then I could see that turning into a B+ or A+.  Too hard for me to give it an A with Still, Thompson and Charles.

This. 

Hard to give an (A) grade to a draft when 3 of the top 4 picks aren't starting. 

While no team is going to hit on every 1st and 2nd rounder, you should clearly expect guys taken in those rounds to at the very least be key contributors.  

[*Nately120*]

(08-19-2015, 05:50 PM)GarbageDisposal Wrote: This thread speaks to a tendency to overrate our own players because we know them, because they're "ours," whereas if they were on another team they wouldn't be notable or getting such high marks. Let me explain. Zeitler and Iloka are really the only two "gems" in that. Kirkpatrick isn't a bust yet, but he's actually been pretty below average overall and hasn't lived up to his first round status yet.

I wouldn't criticize fans around here as much for acting like we can't judge Dre until his 4th season when there is a thread on the very board laughing about a guy the Steelers have had for a few months having a hard time adjusting to the NFL.

[Joe Pong]

(08-19-2015, 09:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm sorry, I don't see how that's anything great (yet).  I'm not sure it's even "good".  It seems pretty average.  Let me explain:

Right off the bat, lets start with Dre Kirk.  Is that a great pick as of right now?  No.  Is it a good pick as of right now?  Not in my opinion.  Could it be?  Sure.  It could be good or great.  But as of right now the guy has started 5 games in 3 years.  You can bring up the fact that he walked into a loaded situation and that's all well and good, but you still can't say it's been proven to be anything special.  You can argue it could be all you want, but right now, at best, it's an incomplete or a pick with potential.

Zeitler.  Best pick of the draft, no doubt.  It is "masterclass" to hit on a first round guard?  No, not really.  If you wanna say it was a good pick, fair enough.  But hard to label hitting on first round guard as great scouting.

Still.  Terrible pick.

Thompson.  Not a good pick.

Sanu.  Sorry, but he's played pretty much like a 3rd round WR.  It's done some good things, not a bad pick.  The guy has averaged 450 yards and 3.75 TD's a season.  His career year was for 790, and only came because he saw injuries two the guys ahead of him and a starting TE.  I'd say this pick falls somewhere between C- and C+ right now. (This could go up of course, he just needs to do more before I'm awarded a gold star)

Orson Charles.  Terrible pick.

Sean Prater.  Not even worth my time.

Marvin Jones.  GOOD pick.  When I see more than 1 year of results I could be open to calling it a great pick.  Nonetheless, very good value so far.

George Iloka.  Very good pick.  Best production next to Zeitler.  Great value here.  Kudos.

Boom Herron.  Not even worth my time.

Again, the terminology use was "masterclass".  Is it really?  Realllllyyyy????  In a year with an extra 1st and 3rd?  With bust in the 2nd and 3rd round?  

I'm sorry, you can argue it's good if you want.  But great?  Imagine reading this on another team's board with players with similar production.  You'd be rolling your eyes.  I know I'm just the negative Nancy, but c'mon.  Seriously, look at this list again and tell me I'm wrong.  

Fwiw, I  give it a current grade of B-.  If Dre blows up and Jones or Sanu sustained their career high production then I could see that turning into a B+ or A+.  Too hard for me to give it an A with Still, Thompson and Charles.

What are you talking about? Thompson was an excellent pick. He's been the 3rd DT pretty much since he came into the NFL, and probably has deserved to start.

In fact, some of issues with our defense at times has been due to him missing a few games with injury. They struggled when he went down.

Laughing at the ignorant people saying he's on the bubble.

[Lawless_1]

I'd say it was a good draft but I have to put 2009 ahead of it right now because the jury is still out on Kirk and MLJ a little.


2009 produced four starters that remain starters on this team today.

[djs7685]

Okay, well there are some good points on both sides here, but let's not let Pong's insanity ruin my side of the debate here. Disregard his trolling for a minute and let me make a few points to the "not a great draft" side.

1. Name 5 RGs better than Zeitler for those that say he isn't top 5.

2. Name 10 SS better than Iloka for those that are unsure he's top 10.

3. I don't care if Marvin Jones had 700 yards and 10 TDs in one single game, he still did it in 2013 and we aren't putting up qualifiers for his peers, so can we leave it at the fact that he had a GREAT 2013 for a #2 WR on a team that was playing musical receivers half the season?? To pretend that he didn't look good outside of his big game is crazy, he consistently did exactly what Sanu struggled with which was getting separation on the outside. Andy targeted A.J. like 500 times that year, MLJ's statline would have been even more impressive had Andy/Gruden stopped locking in on A.J. as if he was the only guy that existed at times. MLJ got plenty of separation to get the targets, so it's not like Andy ignored him for the same reason as he didn't look Sanu's way when he was the #2.

4. I don't think we can call Thompson a terrible pick, but he wasn't a great one either. He still was able to come in and fill in for Geno just fine in 2013, though he wasn't going beast mode or anything.

5. I agree with Shake about not getting great value out of Dre Kirk. The best value is when you have guys tearing it up on their rookie contract, I completely agree with that. As it was said in that post, we're probably only getting 1 year out of his rookie deal where he's actually a big contributor, which sucks in a way. BUT, if he turns into a legit #1/2 CB, that's going to be considered a huge draft hit whether we got the most value out of his rookie deal or not. With the amount of busts in each draft, turning into a starting quality CB even after 3 years is still very, very good. Also, Shake (or maybe someone else) made a comment about Dre being the 4th/Dime CB, but when he was showing the flashes that our fanbase is now excited about, he was starting on the outside as a #1/2 CB. Let's not pretend he was covering scrubs every time he saw the field.

6. I also want to point out another thing Shake said that rubbed me the wrong way was mentioning that either MLJ or Sanu probably won't be on the team after next year, as if that would somehow make the 2012 draft worse? If that's not what you were implying, then my bad, but I don't think it should count against the team's drafting ability if one of the guys is likely going to be getting a contract from a different team because we can't afford to keep them all. If anything, IMO, that would make the draft seem even better in a way, because it's saying one of the players is good enough to get offered a bigger deal from a random team than we'd be willing to pay.

7. Let's look at a couple different kinds of "good drafts".

2010 Seattle Seahawks (get ready for this one)
Russell Okung
Earl Thomas
Golden Tate
Walter Thurmond
E.J. Wilson
Kam Chancellor
Anthony McCoy
Dexter Davis
Jameson Konz

Sure, they had a couple extra draft picks (2 first rounders, 2 fourths), but this draft was insane. This is probably the best example I can think of that's just one of your best drafts of the entire 2000's. Sure, there are some guys on there that haven't done anything/much, and there are some guys that had/have their issues (Thurmond), but dang that's a damn impressive draft.

My point is, this isn't your usual draft. This is out of the ordinary and definitely leaps and bounds above what most teams do each season. The Bengals 2012 draft isn't as good as this, but it's not extremely far behind and it gets even closer depending on what MLJ and Dre do this season.

Getting 2 top 10 talents in a single draft isn't very common, and the Bengals getting Zeitler + Iloka makes the 2012 draft great with that alone. Throw in Sanu being a good slot guy, MLJ being a legitimate #2 receiver, and Kirkpatrick (hopefully) being a legitimate starting CB and you're looking at a great draft.

If you guys think it wasn't so impressive, show me some typical drafts that are considered just "okay" that are comparable to ours in 2012. Show me some drafts in recent years where a team got a couple top 10 guys at their positions along with 3+ other contributors as well. It doesn't happen as often as a lot of you want to believe. Right now, at this very time, no, this isn't the greatest draft of all time or anything, but it's certainly better than a lot of you will give it credit for.

[Luvnit2]

(08-19-2015, 09:57 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: This. 

Hard to give an (A) grade to a draft when 3 of the top 4 picks aren't starting. 

While no team is going to hit on every 1st and 2nd rounder, you should clearly expect guys taken in those rounds to at the very least be key contributors.  

You need to do some research. I looked up a few well respected franchises 1st round picks from 2001 to 2012 (too early to judge after 2012) and we are discussing 2012.

Seattle - had 13 picks and missed on 8 so hit only 38.5% of 1st rounders. A. Curry, L Jackson, Spenser, Tubbs, J. Stevens, K Robinson, J. Carpenter, K. Jennings.

Colts - Missed on 5 of 11

I think if you look, you will see there are more 1st round misses than you thought by a lot of teams and not just teams bad at drafting like Cleveland

[djs7685]

(08-20-2015, 11:12 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You need to do some research. I looked up a few well respected franchises 1st round picks from 2001 to 2012 (too early to judge after 2012) and we are discussing 2012.

Seattle - had 13 picks and missed on 8 so hit only 38.5% of 1st rounders. A. Curry, L Jackson, Spenser, Tubbs, J. Stevens, K Robinson, J. Carpenter, K. Jennings.

Colts - Missed on 5 of 11

I think if you look, you will see there are more 1st round misses than you thought by a lot of teams and not just teams bad at drafting like Cleveland

I see a lot of people saying "free agency is a crap shoot!" as a way to defend the Bengals for never making big moves. At least you know what those players are capable of at an NFL level for 3+ seasons.

The draft is the ultimate "crap shoot", and as you've pointed out, even the teams that are considered to be great at drafting miss on high round picks more often than you'd expect.

I also don't know why some people would say our draft can't be considered great for missing on a high round pick (Still) without realizing that Iloka being a great late rounder makes up for missing early. Iloka was a top 3 coverage S last year, and that's among all 64 starters at safety and not just the ones at his exact, technical position of SS.

[xavierdude]

(08-19-2015, 10:13 AM)BritishBengal Wrote: The rise of Dre Kirkpatrick is, for me, one of the most exciting storylines coming into this new season. I'll be the first to admit that I hated that pick 3 years ago. I thought he looked stiff on tape and relied heavily on Mark Barron making plays to atone for his mistakes. As the seasons passed it looked like Dre might become another ill-judged Bengals 1st round draft selection as injuries and inconsistent play de-railed his impact. Then BAM! The end of last season the guy exploded. Making crucial game-changing plays and looking far more solid than in seasons past. This renaissance of sorts seems to be continuing, as this offseason his growing confidence and stellar play shines through, attracting positive attention from those close to the team. It is fair to say there is a buzz about him.

This made me, out of curiosity, look back at the 2012 draft. The more I delved into it the more I realise this, perhaps even more than the 2011 draft, was the moment this team escaped its mundane and underwhelming past.

The players selected that draft were as follows:
1)Dre Kirkpatrick*
2)Kevin Zeitler*
3)Devon Still
4)Mohammed Sanu
5)Brandon Thompson*
6)Orson Charles
7)Shaun Prater
8)Marvin Jones*
9)George Illoka*
10)Dan Herron

I'll start with those players that didn't make it. As a 2nd overall pick, on the field, Still has been a disappointment. Off it of course he has been an inspiration and hero. Which leads to an interesting thought of whether, in reality, this was the real steal of the draft. Orson Charles showed talent but (rightly or wrongly) didn't stick around. Prater too showed a lot of talent but injuries set him back, he has been with the Vikings and now Zim since 2013. Boom Herron didn't show it here but had a great run with the Colts last year and showed that he too was probably a smart pick.

Next lets look at the pick in the 3rd Sanu has been a solid role player, and about as much as you would expect from a 3rd round pick. A good red-zone threat and a multi-talented player (perfect passer).

You'll notice the players asterisked. This is because all these selections came about directly or indirectly from smart moves made by the front office. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I will use it. Looking at the other corners that went before and after Kirkpatrick (Morris Claibourne, Stephon Gilmore, Janoris Jenkins, Casey Hayward, Trumaine Johnson, Josh Robinson) you could argue Dre has a shot at becoming the best corner of that class. This pick as we know was a result of the Palmer trade, Dre was an Oakland pick. The selection of Zeitler came as a result of a trade down with New England. They took the talented Chandler Jones, but at the time we were in the market for O-line help. Many were horrified when we passed on DeCastro, but in truth Zeitler has probably had the better career thus far. Not only this but in moving down the Bengals aquired an extra 3rd round pick, a pick that would turn into Brandon Thompson. The 5th round was a triumph. Marvin Jones came thanks to traded Chad to the Pats, and Illoka thanks to trading Keith Rivers to the Giants. Both Keith and Chad are now out of the NFL. That year we didn't have a 7th round pick because that was traded with David Jones for Reggie Nelson. Our 7th round pick that year became Jeris Pendleton a DT who has only seen one regular season game with the Colts.

If you look at it, the picks we had that were our own that year all flopped other than Sanu. In 2012 and 2013 the Bengals turned;

David Jones
Keith Rivers
Chad Johnson
Carson Palmer

into

Reggie Nelson
Dre Kirkpatrick
Brandon Thompson
Marvin Jones
Gio Bernard-Part of the Palmer trade, 2nd round in 2013
Cobi Hamilton-Part of the Chad trade, 6th round in 2013

We often give this organisation a lot of stick in the way it deals with personnel and being 'conservative' in FA. However when you stop and think about what it has done, rather quietly, these last few years, you can understand why. It managed with a few moves in 2012 to assemble a core of young players (and Reggie) that have been the foundations to a lot of recent success.

Here is to another successful year!

[xavierdude]

(08-19-2015, 01:51 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Wow.

Anyone claiming that this draft was anything short of great needs to go look at your average draft for any team around the league.

Go to Wikipedia, type in a random season and random team, look at their draft, and then come back here and let me know what you think. Here are a few examples, I just put in a recent year and picked a team off the top of my head. I tried to not pick teams that have been just BAD at drafting either to make it fair.

2013 Detroit Lions
Ezekiel Ansah
Darius Slay
Larry Warford
Devin Taylor
Sam Martin
Corey Fuller
Theo Riddick
Michael Williams
Brandon Hepburn

2012 New England Patriots
Chandler Jones
Dont'a Hightower
Tavon Wilson
Jake Bequette
Nate Ebner
Alfonzo Dennard
Jeremy Ebert

2011 San Francisco 49ers
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Daniel Kilgore
Ronald Johnson
Colin Jones
Bruce Miller
Mike Person
Curtis Holcomb

2012 San Diego Chargers
Melvin Ingram
Kendall Reyes
Brandon Taylor
Ladarius Green
Johnnie Troutman
David Molk
Edwin Baker

2012 Baltimore Ravens
Courtney Upshaw
Kelechi Osemele
Bernard Pierce
Gino Gradkowski
Christian Thompson
Asa Jackson
Tommy Streeter
DeAngelo Tyson

[xavierdude]

(08-19-2015, 01:27 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: while they arent with us anymore i believe Herron is still on the colts and Prater the Vikings.

But i agree it wasnt a grand slam by any means.

wonders why all these "grand slams" dont translate into playoff wins

[djs7685]

l2quote, noob.