John McCain

[GMDino]

(08-27-2018, 09:43 PM)Vlad Wrote: Sadly McCain became the poster child for the Trump hating establishment RINO's. He couldn't stand that a non-politician outsider busted down the door to his club. His disdain for Trump was glaring.


He goes to Germany and bashes Trump.
McCain was the one responsible for handing over that fake Trump dossier to the FBI...claiming to do "what any (Trump hating) American citizen would do".
 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11781169

He reneged on his promise to vote for the repeal of Obamacare just to spite Trump. He was the deciding vote...bet that made him feel extra good.

His last and final act as it relates to Trump... according to his family.... was to request Trump not attend his funeral.

That says it all right there.

Look, we all agree McCain was a great guy.

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2018, 09:43 PM)Vlad Wrote: Sadly, McCain became the poster child for the Trump hating establishment RINO's. He couldn't stand that a non-politician outsider busted down the door to his club. His disdain for Trump was glaring.


He goes to Germany and bashes Trump.
McCain was the one responsible for handing over that fake Trump dossier to the FBI...claiming to do "what any (Trump hating) American citizen would do".
 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11781169

He reneged on his promise to vote for the repeal of Obamacare just to spite Trump. He was the deciding vote...bet that made him feel extra good.

His last and final act as it relates to Trump... according to his family.... was to request Trump not attend his funeral.

That says it all right there.

What you say has merit and I agree the two were at polar opposites. But there is no need for Trump to behave in the manner for which he has. I have 0 problem with Trump not mentioning McCain or not attending the funeral; however, his choice to raise the flag at the WH at the earliest possible moment is petty and disrespects what McCain did for this country.

[*Nately120*]

Semi-related, Jimmy Carter looks like he's on the ropes too.

[GMDino]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45323772

Quote:John McCain death: Trump lowers White House flag after criticism



US President Donald Trump has announced that the White House flag will be returned to half-staff, after critics attacked his response to the death of Republican senator John McCain.


Flags at some federal buildings were fully raised on Monday, far earlier than would normally be expected after such an event.


Mr Trump tweeted his condolences to the McCain family, but has not offered a tribute to the veteran's life.


The pair had a fractious relationship.








Mr Trump appeared to repeatedly ignore media questions about the flag before announcing that it would be lowered again.


He said in a statement: "Despite our differences on policy and politics, I respect Senator John McCain's service to our country and, in his honour, have signed a proclamation to fly the flag of the United States at half-staff until the day of his interment."


He also confirmed reports he will not attend McCain's funeral next weekend.


The statement said other members of the Trump administration, including his chief of staff and secretary of defence, will attend instead.

Vice-President Mike Pence will also address a service in McCain's honour at the capitol on Friday.



...


Who complained about the White House flag?
Traditionally, the death of somebody of McCain's stature would see flags flying at half-staff until their burial.


The White House was urged by senators of both parties to honour that protocol, and critics asked why a proclamation had not been issued as it was after the deaths of other political figures, such as former First Lady Barbara Bush.


Senior Democrat Chuck Schumer and top Republican Mitch McConnell said the flags on all government buildings should be at half-staff for the late senator until his burial next Sunday.

• Former presidents lead McCain tributes
  

Flags at the US Capitol and other Washington landmarks remained at half-staff earlier on Monday, but the White House had returned to its usual levels.

Why was there no Trump statement?
The rather sparing statement on Monday was the first from the White House to reference McCain's death.
None were issued over the weekend, though one was drafted, according to US media.


Instead, both the president and vice-president offered their condolences to the senator's family via Twitter.


Skip Twitter post by @realDonaldTrump

Quote:
[/url]Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump





My deepest sympathies and respect go out to the family of Senator John McCain. Our hearts and prayers are with you!
8:44 PM - Aug 25, 2018

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  215K
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Twitter Ads info and privacy

End of Twitter post by @realDonaldTrump

Skip Twitter post by @VP

Quote:
Vice President Mike Pence

@VP





Karen and I send our deepest condolences to Cindy and the entire McCain family on the passing of Senator John McCain. We honor his lifetime of service to this nation in our military and in public life. His family and friends will be in our prayers. God bless John McCain.
9:46 PM - Aug 25, 2018

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Twitter Ads info and privacy End of Twitter post by @VP

The antipathy between the president and McCain has been well documented since Mr Trump took office.


Earlier this month, when he signed a multi-billion dollar defence bill named after McCain, the president did not say his name.


Mr McCain's body will lie in state in the Arizona State Capitol on Wednesday and at the US Capitol Rotunda on Friday, giving his colleagues and the public a chance to pay their respects.

He will then be laid to rest on Sunday in a private ceremony at the US Naval Academy chapel.

Even in death McCain proves he's a better man and more of a winner than Trump.

[THE Bigzoman]

(08-27-2018, 01:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nothing against McCain personally, but this whole case makes me want to bring up a pretty important point that I think should have been discussed more.

A person with brain cancer was allowed to continue to help lead our country and make decisions until the point where they died of said brain cancer.

McCain gave amazing service to this country, but I can't believe anyone with brain cancer was allowed to stay in office/power.

He put his own ego above that of the people of Arizona.

No love lost for this man.

The one-man case for term limits is no longer an active senator, and the world is a much better place without him.

[THE Bigzoman]

(08-27-2018, 01:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The problem there is that different people have different responses to these things. I have known people with brain tumors that only had headaches and no other signs/symptoms. Drawing those hard lines is difficult and could very easily be seen as undemocratic, subverting the will of the voters.

I don't think anyone is asking their senators to be able to run a 4'22 like John Ross.

But if you don't even know which foot to put a cast on, it's probably time to hang things up.

[ballsofsteel]

(08-28-2018, 12:52 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: I don't think anyone is asking their senators to be able to run a 4'22 like John Ross.

But if you don't even know which foot to put a cast on, it's probably time to hang things up.

Are you talking about that picture that Q or Anon put out some months back?

[ballsofsteel]

At least Trump is not being a hypocte this one time and coming out with praise for McCain like everyone else. Trump hated McCain and he is sticking to his guns.
Speaking of guns, I think the most money the NRA donated to a candidate was McCain. that must be part of the reason his daughter Meghan defended the NRA no matter what.
Speaking of Trump. to be fair, Back in 2008, when McCain was running against Obama for president, Chris Rock did a comedy special. Talking about Mccain , Rock said something to the effect of " I don't want the the guy who got caught" referring to McCain getting shot down. There was no outrage from the main stream media about this.

[THE Bigzoman]

(08-28-2018, 06:46 AM)ballsofsteel Wrote: Are you talking about that picture that Q or Anon put out some months back?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/361682-mccain-explains-why-his-boot-was-on-a-different-foot

Was referring to the "oh, I was just giving my broken foot a break when I put a cast on the foot that isn't broken....."

[Belsnickel]

Here is an article that was posted yesterday that I think was a good summary of my thoughts as a progressive person: https://crooked.com/article/john-mccain-death-politics/

Quote:John McCain is dead and before you check Twitter, before you allow yourself to imagine the roiling demonstrations of grief and indifference and cruelty, you try to take an inventory your own feelings. You try to feel without anticipating a reaction, to avoid beta-testing your human experience.

You are surprised by your own sadness. You know that a battle will play out now over his legacy. You know that battle begins before the body is cold. You know that he will be beatified by those who truly loved him and knew him, who mourn a friend and father and hero. You know that journalists are prone to the maudlin and reverential, and mixed in with all this sincerity will be countless performances, pundits starring in a Sorkinesque drama of the loss of the last good man—a branding exercise for the dead and for the living. And then there will be the cool kids, proud to feel nothing, to point out that sentiment is somehow weak and naive. And you know too that there will be those policing the reaction. Too sad or too smug. Too snarky or too cold.

We are all a little broken now, a little twitchy, a little corrupted by punditry and public relations and social media. This is the Age of Authenticity, of an impossible standard: that you must be yourself and be perfect; you must be savvy but not hurt your side; you must break through but not cross the line; be real and acceptable; live on display and manage your brand; obsess over symbols and tokens and representations, while being cynical enough to know that ceremony is for rubes. Do flags at half-staff matter? Do you care? Why? What does it matter? When you celebrate someone you like despite the harms he would have implemented, are you righteous or are you a silly person, charmed by temperament and a narrative that divorces politics from its impact on actual lives?

John McCain was funny and acerbic and had soul and pathos and blind spots and cruelty and conviction. He was bellicose. He was bled and broken and brave for his country. He was dangerous and his decency as a man is belied by the death toll of the foreign policy he espoused. He sold out to corporations but he believed in campaign finance reform. He saved Obamacare but would have repealed it. He was enamored of independence and then surprised you by living up to it, rarely. He was complicated. He believed in America. He was big in a place filled with tiny tiny little *****. He was a patriot and he was wrong. He was a patriot and if there is a core challenge we face right now, if you could say in one sentence what may doom this country, it is that cowardice, greed, hate, and power have drained the patriotism of one of our two political parties.

It’s true, the world would be far worse if John McCain had his way. But it would be far better if more politicians had a shred of his character. And that ought to be mourned. That ought to be grieved. And if he is not an adversary to celebrate in death, if he is not an opponent to pause and appreciate, then none can be. Maybe that’s how you feel. Maybe now, at this moment, you see the Manichean stakes, you see the wretchedness of this administration and those who compromise with it, you feel the assault, you know the pain and loss that the Washington class does not care to see, and it all rings tinny and false. But if you can’t in your own inventory find some love alongside the genuine anger at the celebration of a man whose politics you despise, that doesn’t make you a better partisan; it makes you a harder person. It’s sourness, not purity. No one is above grief. But there is plenty of space beneath it.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-28-2018, 08:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here is an article that was posted yesterday that I think was a good summary of my thoughts as a progressive person: https://crooked.com/article/john-mccain-death-politics/

I gotta be honest, that that is a lot more thinking on this than I will ever do.  An 81 yr old man died.  It happens a lot.  We talk about it because he was obviously well known, but I'm not going to do a lot of soul searching over my feelings about him.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-28-2018, 10:06 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I gotta be honest, that that is a lot more thinking on this than I will ever do.  An 81 yr old man died.  It happens a lot.  We talk about it because he was obviously well known, but I'm not going to do a lot of soul searching over my feelings about him.  

I have to admit, I have done more with McCain than other well known individuals that have passed in recent memory. Even while alive McCain challenged my views on him and on policies in general, so after his death it isn't surprising that he is causing some reflection for myself and others that wade a little deeper into politics than most.

[GMDino]

So Trump, in a TOTALLY beta move, capitulated and lowered the flag again.

Then he mumbled some nice words about McCain.

Because he was worried about losing votes, more than likely.

So do the supporters/defenders spin it?  Is it he did the right thing, leave him alone for how petulantly he acted the day before?  Or do they recognize him as the child he is...finally?

[GMDino]

(08-27-2018, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is all an interesting conversation to me because the 2000 election was one where I was paying zero attention. I was 15 that year and more concerned about other things. So the Clinton years and the election of 2000 are things I don't know much about. Discussions like these cause me to look into it and it's always enlightening for me.

(08-28-2018, 10:33 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to admit, I have done more with McCain than other well known individuals that have passed in recent memory. Even while alive McCain challenged my views on him and on policies in general, so after his death it isn't surprising that he is causing some reflection for myself and others that wade a little deeper into politics than most.

I saw the top quote and wanted to come back to this.


I didn't realize I was that much older than you!  

By the time Clinton was getting into office I was out of college and work in radio...so I followed that very closely.  I was always interested in politics, but the Clinton era was the first for meas an "adult" to discuss and argue the events of the day.

2000 was ugly with Bush/Rove.  

As you have said about Gingrich and the way politics changed under him (or politicking changed) 2000 was where nothing matter but winning came into play.  The simple fact that a person like Rove could slander a man like McCain was enough to put me off.  (Although I did vote for Bush over Gore for different reasons.)

If you haven't already done some research on Rove and his "ways" I recommend it.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 09:43 PM)Vlad Wrote: McCain was the one responsible for handing over that fake Trump dossier to the FBI...claiming to do "what any (Trump hating) American citizen would do".
 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11781169

So let me get thos straight.  If you got information that the russians might have info to blackmail our president and you would keep it a secret because you value your political party more than the country.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-28-2018, 10:33 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to admit, I have done more with McCain than other well known individuals that have passed in recent memory. Even while alive McCain challenged my views on him and on policies in general, so after his death it isn't surprising that he is causing some reflection for myself and others that wade a little deeper into politics than most.

I believe I'm a bit cold hearted or maybe not as warm hearted as others in these things.  Reagan was elected when I was thirteen.  I idolized the man.  People can laugh and say he was the worst human ever, but I felt good when he spoke of America and Americans.  That being said, I didn't feel any sort of grief or serious feelings when he died.  I felt bad when Beau Biden died.  I like very little about his father politically, but Jesus how much is one man supposed to endure? I even made a promise to myself that if he were ever nominated I would vote for him. (2016 would have been ideal )

[*bfine32*]

(08-28-2018, 03:29 PM)GMDino Wrote: So Trump, in a TOTALLY beta move, capitulated and lowered the flag again.

Then he mumbled some nice words about McCain.

Because he was worried about losing votes, more than likely.

So do the supporters/defenders spin it?  Is it he did the right thing, leave him alone for how petulantly he acted the day before?  Or do they recognize him as the child he is...finally?

Well, it's good to know that whatever he does some will complain.

To choose to lower the flag again is the right move; I was against his raising after the minimum requirement. But it appears that has be rectified.

It's ironic that you ask how Trump folks will spin this immediately after spinning it yourself.

[Belsnickel]

(08-28-2018, 03:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: I saw the top quote and wanted to come back to this.


I didn't realize I was that much older than you!  

I act like a curmudgeonly old man, so I can understand that.

[*Nately120*]

(08-28-2018, 07:14 AM)ballsofsteel Wrote: At least Trump is not being a hypocte this one time and coming out with praise for McCain like everyone else. Trump hated McCain and he is sticking to his guns.

If Trump wanted to be a petty private citizen he shouldn't have run for president.  There is a certain amount of respect and diplomacy expected of our leaders, isn't there?  Then again when former president Trump croaks we will see how the sitting president handles the news, I guess.

[ballsofsteel]

(08-28-2018, 08:33 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/361682-mccain-explains-why-his-boot-was-on-a-different-foot

Was referring to the "oh, I was just giving my broken foot a break when I put a cast on the foot that isn't broken.....

Forgetting which foot is injured when you have a foot injury must be pretty common. Trump forgot which foot he had the bone spur in.