A True Assessment...

[BengalChris]

(11-21-2018, 03:08 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I agree to a point.  It seems the decisions from the Front Office leads to a repeating theme...that is; so much potential but never enough.  

But if the players were healthy, with the personnel decisions to get the team at the start of the season, did it appear to be enough?  I don't think so.  I was concerned as many others that the offensive line was porous.  I have been also concerned at the backer position for seemingly years if not freaking decades.  

Potential is only good if it is realized in games.

People can fall in love with a player or mis-evaluate a player and believe he has more potential than he has.

Paul Alexander convinced the team that Ogbuehi and Fisher were the starting OTs for years to come and it took the team 3 years to figure out that it was all BS. The front office believed this over the consistent mounting evidence that Ogbuehi couldn't block and made awful decisions. Meanwhile the offense suffered.

[THE PISTONS]

IF we had a healthy Eifert on offense, that's a game changer. I think our offense would be 5-7 points a game better.

The defense? Glasgow was a huge loss. Lawson. Vigil.

Even with those guys, I don't think we beat the Steelers for the division, but we're probably a WildCard for sure.

But, injuries are part of the game. Eifert has played less than half of his games in his career. Burfict is suspended or hurt a lot. Our defense wasn't playing good when totally healthy.

Really hard to evaluate.

[XsandOs]

Three questions/points:

1) When Teams rebuild, they do so around a core of young players and a few top shelf players. Who do you build around? QBs are generally the centerpiece.

2) How long should the rebuilding phase take? How much of the Team do you replace/upgrade? So, can you acquire a dream team in 4 years?

3) Who leads the rebuilding. Specifically, you rebuild around a defensive and offensive philosophy? So that means coaching overhaul too.

The truth is that rebuilding often occurs at the two ends of the spectrum. Either you are a terrible Team that has to change, or a top notch Team that reloads.

When you are an average Team, it's awful tough to want to change.

[Joelist]

More to the point, there has to be a willingness to pay big bucks for A List Free Agents, as otherwise you're in a never ending rebuild where the draft cannot generate enough players to fix all the problems.

For example, just on defense we need at bare minimum another starter quality safety, three starter quality linebackers and a DE. Meanwhile at minimum offense needs starter quality RT and RG and possibly LG as well as TE. Unless you expect us to hit a home run on EVERY PICK of the upcoming draft we absolutely need A List Free Agents.

[Whatever]

(11-21-2018, 07:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: More to the point, there has to be a willingness to pay big bucks for A List Free Agents, as otherwise you're in a never ending rebuild where the draft cannot generate enough players to fix all the problems.

For example, just on defense we need at bare minimum another starter quality safety, three starter quality linebackers and a DE. Meanwhile at minimum offense needs starter quality RT and RG and possibly LG as well as TE. Unless you expect us to hit a home run on EVERY PICK of the upcoming draft we absolutely need A List Free Agents.

If we need 7-9 starters at minimum, we wouldn't have won 5 games so far this year.  

[SunsetBengal]

(11-21-2018, 11:54 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: The only thing that will get this team moving in the right direction is a Offensive minded coach. Marvin was a good coach to get when he came here but it was a different game back then. The game has evolved and the coach can not since he is defensive minded. Not saying all defensive minded coaches cant but the one we have has reached the end of his usefulness.

I'm going to take it one step further, and say that the only thing that will really change this organization is Mike Brown retiring, and an actual GM being hired and given full control of football operations.   

Sorry to seem so blunt, but we've been watching our "GM" fumble around for nearly 3 decades.  It's time he admitted defeat, and pass the torch to someone who knows how to build a football team.

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-21-2018, 10:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm going to take it one step further, and say that the only thing that will really change this organization is Mike Brown retiring, and an actual GM being hired and given full control of football operations.   

Sorry to seem so blunt, but we've been watching our "GM" fumble around for nearly 3 decades.  It's time he admitted defeat, and pass the torch to someone who knows how to build a football team.

I would like to add this line of thought...The Bengals could have won it all in 2005 until Palmer had his knee shredded.  I think in 2015 the team had a good chance of going further until the meltdown.  I think the front office and Lewis had the personnel in each case.  You cannot really fault front office and coaches for the injury in 2005.  It was like someone ripped my heart out.  You can however fault the coaching staff for the meltdown in 2015.  Keeping both Adams and Burfict on the same field was the perfect storm for a meltdown.  

But this year, I think they had the talent up to a point.  The glaring needs at RG & RT were always a point of contention on this board.  Many, including myself, thought Brown along with a healthy Burfict would have been enough at backers, but it was still a question of depth.  

So many talented players injured this year cannot be the fault of the front office or coaching.  Miss tackles and assignments could be partly blamed on coaching or players simply not executing plays.  I think hiring Austin was huge mistake and that is directly the front office and Lewis's input.  

[wolfkaosaun]

So Daniel Jeremiah brought this up in a tweet about building a roster in today's NFL.

Role/Number of players
QB (1)
Pass rusher (2)
Off Playmaker (3)
Def Playmaker (3)
Quality OL (3)

Now the catch s that pass rushers are not included as defensive playmakers.

So let's go through the list:

Quarterback: Andy Dalton. We know what he is. He's a top 15 quarterback in the NFL. Whether you give that a .5 or a 1 is always going to be a debate.

Pass rusher: Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap. Carl Lawson is also up there, even though he didn't record any sacks, he generated a ton of pressure this year. So that's 2.

Offensive playmaker: AJ Green. Tyler Boyd. Joe Mixon. So can check that one. Throw in a healthy Eifert as well if you want.

Defensive playmaker: Jessie Bates and WJIII. Jackson has had a VERY big sophmore slump, but his "rookie" year he did well. Potential is there. Bates is playing well for a rookie, will certainly have to see if he can keep it up outside of this year. That's about it. One can argue Shawn Williams, but this is the best season he's had stat wise and he's also been pretty dreadful in some games.

Quality Offensive Line: Clint Boling. Glenn started off strong but REALLY dipped. Can tell his injury has hindered some of his play, but still. Price hasn't looked too great either. But that's to be expected with a rookie coming back from two bad injuries.

[bengalsturntup926]

(11-21-2018, 10:57 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: So Daniel Jeremiah brought this up in a tweet about building a roster in today's NFL.

Role/Number of players
QB (1)
Pass rusher (2)
Off Playmaker (3)
Def Playmaker (3)
Quality OL (3)

Now the catch s that pass rushers are not included as defensive playmakers.

So let's go through the list:

Quarterback: Andy Dalton. We know what he is. He's a top 15 quarterback in the NFL. Whether you give that a .5 or a 1 is always going to be a debate.

Pass rusher: Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap. Carl Lawson is also up there, even though he didn't record any sacks, he generated a ton of pressure this year. So that's 2.

Offensive playmaker: AJ Green. Tyler Boyd. Joe Mixon. So can check that one. Throw in a healthy Eifert as well if you want.

Defensive playmaker: Jessie Bates and WJIII. Jackson has had a VERY big sophmore slump, but his "rookie" year he did well. Potential is there. Bates is playing well for a rookie, will certainly have to see if he can keep it up outside of this year. That's about it. One can argue Shawn Williams, but this is the best season he's had stat wise and he's also been pretty dreadful in some games.

Quality Offensive Line: Clint Boling. Glenn started off strong but REALLY dipped. Can tell his injury has hindered some of his play, but still. Price hasn't looked too great either. But that's to be expected with a rookie coming back from two bad injuries.

I somewhat agree with this,but there has been points made that you dont need a top paid receiver to win a championship and i would agree. Look at st louis rams ,they just got 3 good receivers,none elite. Pats none are elite. The list goes on. But what i do think we need is a strong arm top of the line qb. That makes others better around him. If we had that i bet lesser round receiver would come along and mske a name for himself. Pitt did this with antonio brown found in the 6th round. Offensive line has to atleast be average to better. Defense isnt as important in todays nfl but you do need a few playmakers and still be able to limit the run. 

Coaching is severly important,and our last game is example number 1,we lost that game because of coaching,mostly on the offense where marvin sticks his nose in,he determines what guys goes out there and who doesnt. So it goes back to my original thing i preach,it goes from top down, owner, coaching,qb,rest of team. We havnt won nothing mainly because of the top 3. That has to change to really win. We will never be fully healthy so i never buy that excuse anymore. Your coaching and owner also has to be smart enough to have a winnable backup in place. Look at bengals of 05 and look at last years champs eagles. Major difference. Eagles were stacked also. 

[wolfkaosaun]

(11-21-2018, 11:28 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: I somewhat agree with this,but there has been points made that you dont need a top paid receiver to win a championship and i would agree. Look at st louis rams ,they just got 3 good receivers,none elite. Pats none are elite. The list goes on. But what i do think we need is a strong arm top of the line qb. That makes others better around him. If we had that i bet lesser round receiver would come along and mske a name for himself. Pitt did this with antonio brown found in the 6th round. Offensive line has to atleast be average to better. Defense isnt as important in todays nfl but you do need a few playmakers and still be able to limit the run. 

Coaching is severly important,and our last game is example number 1,we lost that game because of coaching,mostly on the offense where marvin sticks his nose in,he determines what guys goes out there and who doesnt. So it goes back to my original thing i preach,it goes from top down, owner, coaching,qb,rest of team. We havnt won nothing mainly because of the top 3. That has to change to really win. We will never be fully healthy so i never buy that excuse anymore. Your coaching and owner also has to be smart enough to have a winnable backup in place. Look at bengals of 05 and look at last years champs eagles. Major difference. Eagles were stacked also. 

Elite receivers aren't needed, but play makers on offense are.
Look at the Eagles last year: Ertz. Jefferey. Agholor.
Patriots two years ago: Blount. Edelman. Bennett.
Broncos the year before: Thomas. Saunders. Great 1-2 punch with Anderson and Hillman.
None of them exactly elite, but playmakers on offense.

Honestly, I think the Bengals could actually win a playoff game or two with a better HC. The Bengals still have some pieces, but there's been very questionable play-calling and players starting. IE: Jordan Evans.

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-22-2018, 12:01 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Elite receivers aren't needed, but play makers on offense are.
Look at the Eagles last year: Ertz. Jefferey. Agholor.
Patriots two years ago: Blount. Edelman. Bennett.
Broncos the year before: Thomas. Saunders. Great 1-2 punch with Anderson and Hillman.
None of them exactly elite, but playmakers on offense.

Honestly, I think the Bengals could actually win a playoff game or two with a better HC. The Bengals still have some pieces, but there's been very questionable play-calling and players starting. IE: Jordan Evans.

Look at who they have at linebacker...Evans, Nickerson, Bell and Burfict who is a shell of himself.   Out of the list you aforementioned, 3 quality offensive linemen are not on this team.  I think it needs to start there.  Then add 2-3 backers.   I think Brown is okay but not great.  

[bengalsturntup926]

(11-22-2018, 12:01 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Elite receivers aren't needed, but play makers on offense are.
Look at the Eagles last year: Ertz. Jefferey. Agholor.
Patriots two years ago: Blount. Edelman. Bennett.
Broncos the year before: Thomas. Saunders. Great 1-2 punch with Anderson and Hillman.
None of them exactly elite, but playmakers on offense.

Honestly, I think the Bengals could actually win a playoff game or two with a better HC. The Bengals still have some pieces, but there's been very questionable play-calling and players starting. IE: Jordan Evans.

Yeah i agree

[bengalsturntup926]

(11-22-2018, 12:18 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: Look at who they have at linebacker...Evans, Nickerson, Bell and Burfict who is a shell of himself.   Out of the list you aforementioned, 3 quality offensive linemen are not on this team.  I think it needs to start there.  Then add 2-3 backers.   I think Brown is okay but not great.  

We definitely need to draft one high this year,o lineman do slip,like orlando brown last year. And when everyone claiming he was weak and fat, he plugged right in.

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-22-2018, 12:49 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: We definitely need to draft one high this year,o lineman do slip,like orlando brown last year. And when everyone claiming he was weak and fat, he plugged right in.

Still bums me out we passed on him.