Do you believe; and why?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 06:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Eve told the serpent that God said if she ate from the tree she would die, but the serpent told Eve if she ate from the tree she wouldn't die, but the serpent did not tell Eve God was wrong. Did I get your stance right?

Imma just gonna quote you . . .

(04-03-2019, 08:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You could have saved all they typing and simply said: "No, he didn't say it". But that would require being forthright. 

I'm not defending what he said; I accusing those that make up what he said as liars. 

The dude says enough stupid shit, they folks don't have to make up what he says, but every time they do, they shoot themselves in the foot

Show me where the serpent said God was wrong.

You just got bfined.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 07:06 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: It wasn't about Adam and Eve gaining the Knowledge of Good and Evil or to know what God knows. Adams and Eves sin was disobedience because God told them they could eat from any tree in the Garden except that one. Once they sinned, they had to be removed from the garden, from Paradise.

What no one is talking about though is how Adam throws Eve under the bus and blames her for the sin committed, lol. Dude just straight up said "It was this woman" as soon as they were found out when both were there and both ate.

EDIT: By the way, this is called the "Original Sin" but their disobedience was rooted in Pride.

Yes, here's free will. But, don't use it. Because if you do you will get punished even though you don't understand the concept of sin.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 09:41 PM)Lucidus Wrote: In reading through the last couple pages of this thread -- with all the discussion of good and evil -- I am left wanting re-visit a question that I have asked many religious people over the years, only to be left with the most unsatisfying answers:

For those that believe, how is it that you came to determine -- on what basis and to what degree of certainty -- that God is necessarily good [moral] and Satan is necessarily evil [immoral]?

Have you read the Bible?

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 11:41 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Imma just gonna quote you . . .


Show me where the serpent said God was wrong.

You just got bfined.

Dude, did you just bring an unrelated quote about Trump from an unrelated thread into this discussion? 

You could have just clarified your stance as asked. But I understand why you did not. 



BTW: Does "bfined" mean getting owned? I appreciate the compliment but I fear you failed to do so. You're gonna have to put much more rationality into it before you can "bfine" anyone. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 11:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Dude, did you just bring an unrelated quote about Trump from an unrelated thread into this discussion? 

You could have just clarified your stance as asked. But I understand why you did not. 



BTW: Does "bfined" mean getting owned? I appreciate the compliment but I fear you failed to do so. You're gonna have to put much more rationality into it before you can "bfine" anyone. 

You could have saved yourself all that typing and simply wrote, "I can't show you where the serpent said God was wrong."

That's what I mean by, "You got bfined."

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 12:41 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You could have saved yourself all that typing and simply wrote, "I can't show you where the serpent said God was wrong."

That's what I mean by, "You got bfined."

So "bfined"does mean owned..Thanks

I clearly showed where the serpent said God was wrong, unless you consider contradicting something someone said is not suggesting they are wrong.

I gotta admit; you've kinda got me perplexed.   

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 01:09 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So "bfined"does mean owned..Thanks

I clearly showed where the serpent said God was wrong, unless you consider contradicting something someone said is not suggesting they are wrong.

I gotta admit; you've kinda got me perplexed.   

The serpent didn't say God was wrong just like Trump didn't say windmills cause cancer. Although that is what Trump meant. I just used the same tactic you did. Show me where the serpent said God was wrong. You can't. Why? Because he didn't say it. Get it? That's what it means to be bfined. It's a stupid semantics game. One you play frequently.

My stance is serpents don't talk or lie except in mythology or Disney movies. But, I'll play. Sure, the serpent lied to Eve.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-13-2019, 05:22 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It says if they ate from the Tree of Life they would live forever.

My point being that although the Tree of Life is called the "Tree of Life" it did not actually give them life in the sense of "being alive", just as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil isn't what actually gave knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

[GMDino]

People are arguing they are "right" about what a TALKING SNAKE SAID to the woman who was made by stealing a rib from a sleeping man made from dirt.

I love religious arguments. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 09:25 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: My point being that although the Tree of Life is called the "Tree of Life" it did not actually give them life in the sense of "being alive", just as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil isn't what actually gave knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

Giving someone an unnaturally long lifespan that exceeds when they should be dead isn't giving them life?

[jj22]

This thread is the work of the Devil!

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 01:38 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The serpent didn't say God was wrong just like Trump didn't say windmills cause cancer. Although that is what Trump meant. I just used the same tactic you did. Show me where the serpent said God was wrong. You can't. Why? Because he didn't say it.  Get it? That's what it means to be bfined. It's a stupid semantics game. One you play frequently.

My stance is serpents don't talk or lie except in mythology or Disney movies. But, I'll play. Sure, the serpent lied to Eve.

AAAHHHH.....Now I see the point you're trying to make and you would have one (be it a teeny, tiny unrelated one) if the Serpent would have said "I've been told you can eat from the tree..."

WTS, I'm done with this back and forth as there may be those reading this thread trying to get a truer understanding and I do not want to distract from that.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-13-2019, 09:41 PM)Lucidus Wrote: In reading through the last couple pages of this thread -- with all the discussion of good and evil -- I am left wanting re-visit a question that I have asked many religious people over the years, only to be left with the most unsatisfying answers:

For those that believe, how is it that you came to determine -- on what basis and to what degree of certainty -- that God is necessarily good [moral] and Satan is necessarily evil [immoral]?

I believe God is good for a few reasons.


1) God always gives people time to turn to him. 

Gods punishments usually come with a warning. He warned Adam and Eve at the beginning of creation about not eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil when he could have just put the tree there and not told them anything about it and then punished them for eating from it because he thought it'd be fun to do. He warned the people in Noah's time about the flood when he could have just flooded the earth and laughed in enjoyment. He warned the Egyptians and their Pharaoh multiple times and sent plagues with the most deadliest plague being last when he could have just killed them all off with the first plague. 

God has a tendency to warn us about destruction before he sends us destruction. In fact, the bible even ends with a warning to the people living in modern times that Jesus will return and destruction will come with him, yet we ignore it just like all those who came before us.

Why is this important? Because it tells us that God doesn't have the evil intention of wanting to destroy us. Rather, God wants to live in peace with us, but it is our own disobedience that leads to our destruction and not that God has the evil intention of actually wanting our destruction. Satan however does want our destruction and further leads us into it with Adam and Eve being the prime example of this. If Satan cared about Adam and Eve he wouldn't have told them to eat from the tree, yet he did. 


2) God punishes us because of our disobedience, not because of some evil desire to watch us suffer or for his own enjoyment.


As I mentioned above, God didn't have to warn any of us about the destruction he sent/is going to send, yet he did/does. Why? Because he cares about us. If God didn't care, the earth would've been thrown into the sun by now, yet we're all still here rotating around it endlessly. Nowhere does God ever punish someone because he just felt like doing it out of some pleasure. Satan however doesn't care about us. He didn't care that telling Adam and Eve to eat the fruit was going to cause them to experience God's wrath. If he did, he would have never persuaded them to do so knowing what it would cause, yet he did. And what's more disturbing is that Satan did this KNOWING that in the end he is NOT going to win. So in other words, not only did Satan tell us to rebel against God, he basically told us to fight a war that he knows will only lead to our eternal destruction.

3) God offers us salvation


Just as God didn't have to give us warnings for coming destruction, he also didn't have to offer us salvation. Yet he did. This is because God again cares about us and actually doesn't want to destroy us. If he didn't care about us he wouldn't have offered us salvation. What has Satan ever offered anyone that is good?

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 10:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Giving someone an unnaturally long lifespan that exceeds when they should be dead isn't giving them life?

Eternal life and being alive are two different things. That's why there's a distinction between "going to hell" and "eternal life".

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2019, 02:06 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Except people know the consequences of their actions all the time and still do those actions. Ever heard of someone murdering another person and going to prison for it? Did they not know?

Murderers usually don't think they will get caught.

I am pretty sure Eve knew god would know if she ate the fruit.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2019, 12:21 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I believe God is good for a few reasons.


1) God always gives people time to turn to him. 

Gods punishments usually come with a warning. He warned Adam and Eve at the beginning of creation about not eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil when he could have just put the tree there and not told them anything about it and then punished them for eating from it because he thought it'd be fun to do. He warned the people in Noah's time about the flood when he could have just flooded the earth and laughed in enjoyment. He warned the Egyptians and their Pharaoh multiple times and sent plagues with the most deadliest plague being last when he could have just killed them all off with the first plague. 

God has a tendency to warn us about destruction before he sends us destruction. In fact, the bible even ends with a warning to the people living in modern times that Jesus will return and destruction will come with him, yet we ignore it just like all those who came before us.

Why is this important? Because it tells us that God doesn't have the evil intention of wanting to destroy us. Rather, God wants to live in peace with us, but it is our own disobedience that leads to our destruction and not that God has the evil intention of actually wanting our destruction. Satan however does want our destruction and further leads us into it with Adam and Eve being the prime example of this. If Satan cared about Adam and Eve he wouldn't have told them to eat from the tree, yet he did. 


2) God punishes us because of our disobedience, not because of some evil desire to watch us suffer or for his own enjoyment.


As I mentioned above, God didn't have to warn any of us about the destruction he sent/is going to send, yet he did/does. Why? Because he cares about us. If God didn't care, the earth would've been thrown into the sun by now, yet we're all still here rotating around it endlessly. Nowhere does God ever punish someone because he just felt like doing it out of some pleasure. Satan however doesn't care about us. He didn't care that telling Adam and Eve to eat the fruit was going to cause them to experience God's wrath. If he did, he would have never persuaded them to do so knowing what it would cause, yet he did. And what's more disturbing is that Satan did this KNOWING that in the end he is NOT going to win. So in other words, not only did Satan tell us to rebel against God, he basically told us to fight a war that he knows will only lead to our eternal destruction.

3) God offers us salvation


Just as God didn't have to give us warnings for coming destruction, he also didn't have to offer us salvation. Yet he did. This is because God again cares about us and actually doesn't want to destroy us. If he didn't care about us he wouldn't have offered us salvation. What has Satan ever offered anyone that is good?

This makes no sense to me.

God orders you to worship him.  If you don't worship him he sends you to hell.  And you think that makes him good?

I think if he was good he would not order you to worship him in the first place.  And even if he did want you to worship him it would not be under the threat of eternal damnation.  There is no need for "salvation" if there is no threat of damnation in the first place.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2019, 12:22 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Eternal life and being alive are two different things. That's why there's a distinction between "going to hell" and "eternal life".

So if the fruit of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" did not give them "knowledge of good and evil" what did?  Because they did not have it before they ate the fruit, but they had it after.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 02:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Murderers usually don't think they will get caught.

I am pretty sure Eve knew god would know if she ate the fruit.

 
I don't understand your point here?

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2019, 03:22 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote:  
I don't understand your point here?

My point is she did not know it was wrong to eat the fruit.  The serpent told her it was not wrong and she believed him.  If she really thought it was wrong and she would die she would have never eaten it.

You then said that people do stuff all the time they know is wrong.

So I pointed out the difference between murderers who don't think they will get caught and Eve who probably knew God would know she ate the fruit.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This makes no sense to me.

God orders you to worship him.  If you don't worship him he sends you to hell.  And you think that makes him good?

I think if he was good he would not order you to worship him in the first place.  And even if he did want you to worship him it would not be under the threat of eternal damnation.  There is no need for "salvation" if there is no threat of damnation in the first place.

God sends people to hell who are willfully disobedient. The fact that God created eternal damnation doesn't make him bad, at least not to me because the eternal damnation is not what he desires. He created an equally better counter part to it which he wants us to go to. The fact that people choose eternal damnation is on them. 

What makes God good to me isn't what he created or allows to happen to us, but what it is he actually desires for us.