Do you believe; and why?

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2019, 03:32 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: God sends people to hell who are willfully disobedient. The fact that God created eternal damnation doesn't make him bad, at least not to me because the eternal damnation is not what he desires. He created an equally better counter part to it which he wants us to go to. The fact that people choose eternal damnation is on them. 

What makes God good to me isn't what he created or allows to happen to us, but what it is he actually desires for us.

If God was good he would not demand that we worship him or face eternal damnation.

If he was good he would ask us to worship him, but he would not punish us with eternal torment if we don't.

If I wanted a woman to tell me she loved me I would ask her to.  If I had to point a gun at her face to make her do it I would not really feel that good about her saying she loved me.  The fact that I give her the choice to say she loves me or get shot in the face would not make me a good person.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point is she did not know it was wrong to eat the fruit.  The serpent told her it was not wrong and she believed him.  If she really thought it was wrong and she would die she would have never eaten it.

You then said that people do stuff all the time they know is wrong.

So I pointed out the difference between murderers who don't think they will get caught and Eve who probably knew God would know she ate the fruit.

The point is, she knew that God had set a consequence to the action of eating the fruit. When, where, how, that consequence would happen is irrelevant to the fact that she knew there was one.

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2019, 09:35 PM)Lucidus Wrote: The fact that you do not believe is a truth.
The fact that your mother is devoutly religious is a truth.
The fact that your non-belief would hurt your mother is a truth.

All these "truths" must have value, in and of themselves. If all these truths lacked value individually, they could not inform your decision collectively, as it would be rather counterproductive to rely upon information of no value to formulate your thinking process.

And these truths convinced me that non-truth was the best course of action.

That is why I said.

(05-09-2019, 12:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Truth by itself has no value.  It all depends on how it effects your life.

For me it is better to live a falsehood than live the truth.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2019, 03:43 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: The point is, she knew that God had set a consequence to the action of eating the fruit.

No.  The point is she DID NOT know that.  The serpent told her something different and she believed the serpent was correct.

And the reason she believed the serpent instead of God is because God wanted to keep her ignorant so that he could have blind obedience.

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 04:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  The point is she DID NOT know that.  The serpent told her something different and she believed the serpent was correct.

And the reason she believed the serpent instead of God is because God wanted to keep her ignorant so that he could have blind obedience.

Pretty sure you're missing the entire point. Whether she lived/died/became godlike/remained human is not the point. Because as we know she/Adam didn't die "the very day" they ate the fruit.

The point is she was told not to  and she knew she was told not to and she still ate because Satan told her she wouldn't die. So it matters not whether she believed she was going to die or not. Her sin was disobedience. 

Now if the serpent would have said "God really doesn't care if you eat from the tree" you may have a point, but the serpent simply told Eve why God did not want her to eat

[jj22]

God is good. But evil is apart of him as we are all (including the fallen angel) made in his image.

If you believe we are all made in his image anyway. This has to include Lucifer.

Lucifer isn't some entity of his own.

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If God was good he would not demand that we worship him or face eternal damnation.

If he was good he would ask us to worship him, but he would not punish us with eternal torment if we don't.

If I wanted a woman to tell me she loved me I would ask her to.  If I had to point a gun at her face to make her do it I would not really feel that good about her saying she loved me.  The fact that I give her the choice to say she loves me or get shot in the face would not make me a good person.

As I told the OP when he asked the question: You cannot assign a finite term of "good" to an infinite being. I will say "he" appears to be vain in our finite understanding and he definately demands your obedience.   

As to eternal damnation for not believing. I believe (through readings) the only sin that will cause you damnation is mocking God and actively trying to lead others away. I think all others will simply return to dust. 

[Lucidus]

(05-13-2019, 11:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can only assume that those you asked found the question just as unsatisfying as you did their answers. Why no ask why God is good and Martha Stewart is bad? Because the simple answer is: One is the creator and one is the creation; they are not to be compared. 

I must ask what knowledge you possess that allows you to make emphatic determinations on whether any of the extraordinary claims made by the deity in these stories are in fact true? 

What evidence clearly establishes that the character of Satan is less good or more evil than God?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(05-14-2019, 05:28 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I must ask what knowledge you possess that allows you to make emphatic determinations on whether any of the extraordinary claims made by the deity in these stories are in fact true? 

What evidence clearly establishes that the character of Satan is less good or more evil than God?

What makes them not true? Because you don't believe it and because others don't believe it?

I know you don't believe because you call God a character so your question will never be answered to you satisfaction.

And if you truly are looking for answers, instead of discussion on a football message board, I suggest you contact a local Baptist Church that isn't Calvinist. If you need help finding one in your area, let me know and I can hook you up...I hope.

Unless you're in Utah, there aren't many Baptists in Utah.

EDIT: I just saw you're in England. I know a Missionary in Scotland if you have questions.

[jj22]

I've always felt some kind of way about only having to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior before you die to be saved.

Does that mean I can do whatever as long as I accept him before I die?

When I'd ask I'd get, you better hope you don't die suddenly in some kind of accident. But still. Seems like an easy out when you about to die and scared. Who wouldn't accept him then?

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 12:21 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I believe God is good for a few reasons.


1) God always gives people time to turn to him. 

Gods punishments usually come with a warning. He warned Adam and Eve at the beginning of creation about not eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil when he could have just put the tree there and not told them anything about it and then punished them for eating from it because he thought it'd be fun to do. He warned the people in Noah's time about the flood when he could have just flooded the earth and laughed in enjoyment. He warned the Egyptians and their Pharaoh multiple times and sent plagues with the most deadliest plague being last when he could have just killed them all off with the first plague. 

God has a tendency to warn us about destruction before he sends us destruction. In fact, the bible even ends with a warning to the people living in modern times that Jesus will return and destruction will come with him, yet we ignore it just like all those who came before us.

Why is this important? Because it tells us that God doesn't have the evil intention of wanting to destroy us. Rather, God wants to live in peace with us, but it is our own disobedience that leads to our destruction and not that God has the evil intention of actually wanting our destruction. Satan however does want our destruction and further leads us into it with Adam and Eve being the prime example of this. If Satan cared about Adam and Eve he wouldn't have told them to eat from the tree, yet he did. 

As the "creator" - he is the author and definer of what is good and evil.
He created Adam and Eve without the any knowledge of good and evil.
He endows them with both curious minds and the freedom to make choices.
He tells them they must not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Then, he either places - or allows - temptation [the serpent] to persuade Eve to make a "wrong" choice.
He then punishes Adam and Eve [and their entire lineage] for:

    Engaging the curious impulses that he created them with,
    which caused them to exercise the free will he endowed them with,
    that led to making the very decision they he knew they would make.

After all, he is omniscient. He knew they would fail his "test" - however, he created them anyway, knowing full well that he would be punishing a creation for utilizing the very impulses and curiosities that he created them with, and to which they [Adam and Eve] had no realistic comprehension of -- because he would not allow said comprehension. 

I'm sorry, but the story of Adam and Eve - in my opinion - portrays God as rather sadistic and extremely capricious. I see nothing in that story which leads me to believe that he "cared" for his creation or that he intended anything more than confusion and suffering for them.

(05-14-2019, 12:21 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: 2) God punishes us because of our disobedience, not because of some evil desire to watch us suffer or for his own enjoyment.


As I mentioned above, God didn't have to warn any of us about the destruction he sent/is going to send, yet he did/does. Why? Because he cares about us. If God didn't care, the earth would've been thrown into the sun by now, yet we're all still here rotating around it endlessly. Nowhere does God ever punish someone because he just felt like doing it out of some pleasure. Satan however doesn't care about us. He didn't care that telling Adam and Eve to eat the fruit was going to cause them to experience God's wrath. If he did, he would have never persuaded them to do so knowing what it would cause, yet he did. And what's more disturbing is that Satan did this KNOWING that in the end he is NOT going to win. So in other words, not only did Satan tell us to rebel against God, he basically told us to fight a war that he knows will only lead to our eternal destruction.

If God truly did not want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil, it seems either curious that he [purposely] would place among them the very source of the knowledge he was forbidding. Furthermore, he gave them the freedom to choose said knowledge. He then goes even farther and allows/provides temptation to an infantile and ignorant creation -- which seems to all but ensure only one possible outcome. 

(05-14-2019, 12:21 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: 3) God offers us salvation


Just as God didn't have to give us warnings for coming destruction, he also didn't have to offer us salvation. Yet he did. This is because God again cares about us and actually doesn't want to destroy us. If he didn't care about us he wouldn't have offered us salvation. What has Satan ever offered anyone that is good?

How did Satan get access to the garden?
How was Satan allowed to test Job?
How many genocides did Satan oversee?
How many virgins did Satan say to keep for yourself during a time of war?
How many times is Satan on record as condoning the ownership of other people?

I could go on and on, but I imagine you can see my point rather clearly. Notice the stories of Genesis, Job, the tempting of Christ, etc -- the character of Satan is always tends to play a very unique role. I'm sure you've observed the similarities in these roles and know what I'm alluding to, which is a rather stark contrast to many of the abominable actions, orders and scenarios attributed to God.

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 05:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: What makes them not true? Because you don't believe it and because others don't believe it?

I have no idea if they're true or not. Yet, many of those who "believe' do think they're true. I'm asking by what means they reached that conclusion. What knowledge do they possess -- other than faith -- to believe that any of the stories are anything more than allegorical.

(05-14-2019, 05:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I know you don't believe because you call God a character so your question will never be answered to you satisfaction.

While I've never been presented with any evidence that would cause be to believe the Bible is anything more than a collection of stories, I'm certainly not closed off to said evidence if you would care to present some.

(05-14-2019, 05:50 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: And if you truly are looking for answers, instead of discussion on a football message board, I suggest you contact a local Baptist Church that isn't Calvinist. If you need help finding one in your area, let me know and I can hook you up...I hope.

Over the past three decades -- partly because of the nature of my work and partly because of my quest for truth / knowledge -- I've spoken to more clergy, apologists and theologians than you could imagine. I always run into the same failed arguments, personal anecdotes and "faith" related propositions -- instead of demonstrable evidence that can truly support the incredible claims.

Moreover -- whether it's a message board, social media, a church or street corner -- if you truly believe, 1 Peter 3:15 says you should be prepared to give an answer or defense for that belief.

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This makes no sense to me.

God orders you to worship him.  If you don't worship him he sends you to hell.  And you think that makes him good?

I think if he was good he would not order you to worship him in the first place.  And even if he did want you to worship him it would not be under the threat of eternal damnation.  There is no need for "salvation" if there is no threat of damnation in the first place.

Indeed. If one is to believe the accounts in the Bible, then God went through quite a strange, overly complicated journey to alter his previous punishment -- coming back to earth in human form, sacrificing his human self to his supernatural self, offering an exemption -- by way of salvation -- to an infinite punishment for a finite crime, which was his own rather abominable prescription in the first place. 

Under the new perimeters, as long as a person is truly remorseful of their wickedness and seeks redemption through Christ, they shall enjoy the fruits of immortality. Even the most vile, evil and completely immoral people can be awarded "paradise" within this framework.

However, a person who leads a compassionate existence, does good deeds for his fellow man and tries to do as little harm as possible -- but simply does not find good reason to believe in or worship this god -- well, they are doomed to eternal torment for eternity.

I ask those that believe in this concept of Heaven and Hell, in what way does this seem equitable or just?

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 05:28 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I must ask what knowledge you possess that allows you to make emphatic determinations on whether any of the extraordinary claims made by the deity in these stories are in fact true? 

What evidence clearly establishes that the character of Satan is less good or more evil than God?

If you go looking for God with your head there's a very good chance you wont find him. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 05:57 PM)jj22 Wrote: I've always felt some kind of way about only having to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior before you die to be saved.

Does that mean I can do whatever  as long as I accept him before I die?

When I'd ask I'd get, you better hope you don't die suddenly in some kind of accident. But still. Seems like an easy out when you about to die and scared. Who wouldn't accept him then?

Yes, short of mocking God: but God knows your heart and the confession must be public. It's not an "easy out" it's a gift. Many may pity you because you spent a lifetime without a relationship with God. 

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 08:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you go looking for God with your head there's a very good chance you wont find him. 

Wouldn't you say that's rather curious since the one tool that can actually be used to interpret, investigate, deduce, examine and evaluate is in our head? What other means would you suggest I use, if not the ones that are a product of my mind -- like reasoning and critical thinking? 

I hope your answer is not "the heart" , because the heart is incapable of thought, that can neither "look for" nor "find" anything.

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 08:49 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Wouldn't you say that's rather curious since the one tool that can actually be used to interpret, investigate, deduce, examine and evaluate is in our head? What other means would you suggest I use, if not the ones that are a product of my mind -- like reasoning and critical thinking? 

I hope your answer is not "the heart" , because the heart is incapable of thought, that can neither "look for" nor "find" anything.

Lucky for us all the gift of salvation doesn't require thought or sight. All it requires is acceptance. 

"We walk by faith not by sight".

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 09:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Lucky for us all the gift of salvation doesn't require thought or sight. All it requires is acceptance.

If salvation doesn't require thought, how would you know that you even desired it?

As for the "gift" itself, it seems to be predicated on one's willingness to:

be subservient
not question authority
admit that you're not worthy
promise endless worship
beg for forgiveness

Where have I seen these requirements before?

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 10:10 PM)Lucidus Wrote: If salvation doesn't require thought, how would you know that you even desired it?

As for the "gift" itself, it seems to be predicated on one's willingness to:

be subservient
not question authority
admit that you're not worthy
promise endless worship
beg for forgiveness

Where have I seen these requirements before?

Let me answer the first question: You don't.

As to the rest:


I'm unsure where you've seen those requirements before, but salvation requires none of those things. All that is required is to believe that Christ is the savior and confess it publicly. The rest is up to you. 

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And these truths convinced me that non-truth was the best course of action.

That is why I said.


For me it is better to live a falsehood than live the truth.

I would offer that each "individual truth" provided great value, in and of themselves. 
It is because of the value generated from each that you were able to formulate a "cumulative truth".
The powerful value of that truth ultimately caused you to render a judgement that withholding said truth was best.