The Abortion Question

[Naranja Tigre]

(09-29-2015, 08:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: That's exactly what is about.

Unless yo believe that a woman is just an incubator that has no autonomy.

No one LIKES that the fetus must be removed / killed.  But to say its not about a woman's control over her own body is absurd.

If you're pro choice, but also against the death penalty, I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy.

But I get the feeling the pro choicers in here would throw the switch themselves. I respect that.

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-29-2015, 09:29 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: If you're pro choice, but also against the death penalty, I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy.

But I get the feeling the pro choicers in here would throw the switch themselves. I respect that.

How is being pro-choice inconsistent with being against the death penalty?  Does this also mean that being anti-abortion and pro death penalty are somehow inconsistent?

[Naranja Tigre]

(09-29-2015, 09:35 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: How is being pro-choice inconsistent with being against the death penalty?  Does this also mean that being anti-abortion and pro death penalty are somehow inconsistent?

I'll put it as simply as I can. If you're pro choice but also against the death penalty, then in your mind it's acceptable to execute the most innocence in our society, but unacceptable to execute the most guilty.

The only way a person justifies that is to say that fetuses are not people, but that to me is a cop out.

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-29-2015, 09:51 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: I'll put it as simply as I can.  If you're pro choice but also against the death penalty, then in your mind it's acceptable to execute the most innocence in our society, but unacceptable to execute the most guilty.

The only way a person justifies that is to say that fetuses are not people, but that to me is a cop out.

How is any of that hypocritical or inconsistent?  You just provided a justification.  No one cares what you feel is a cop out or not.  It really has no bearing on the conversation. 

I also see you chose to ignore my second question.  

[GMDino]

(09-29-2015, 09:29 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: If you're pro choice, but also against the death penalty, I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy.

But I get the feeling the pro choicers in here would throw the switch themselves. I respect that.

I feel the same way about abortion as I do the death penalty:  Horrible, awful thing to have to do that should only be done in the most extreme and responsible circumstances.

And I would argue that neither MUST be done...but in both cases I do not have be notified or consulted in order to do it.

[Naranja Tigre]

(09-29-2015, 09:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same way about abortion as I do the death penalty:  Horrible, awful thing to have to do that should only be done in the most extreme and responsible circumstances.

And I would argue that neither MUST be done...but in both cases I do not have be notified or consulted in order to do it.

I personally love the death penalty. Some people need to die for the horrible things they've done.

[GMDino]

(09-29-2015, 10:01 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: I personally love the death penalty. Some people need to die for the horrible things they've done.

And if they have done something society agrees is horrible and there is ample proof.  

As I said, in extreme and specific circumstances only.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-29-2015, 09:29 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: If you're pro choice, but also against the death penalty, I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy.

But I get the feeling the pro choicers in here would throw the switch themselves. I respect that.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy because you said you believe in evolution and Genesis then stated we either came from a common ancestor with apes or from God; but combining the two (as you have done personally) would only result in an episode of ancient aliens.

[*bfine32*]

(09-29-2015, 09:35 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: How is being pro-choice inconsistent with being against the death penalty?  Does this also mean that being anti-abortion and pro death penalty are somehow inconsistent?

I think in only one of the cases can we be 100% certain that someone is killed for something they didn't do.

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-29-2015, 10:41 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think in only one of the cases can we be 100% certain that someone is killed for something they didn't do.

I agree.  Though that does not answer my questions.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-29-2015, 10:01 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: I personally love the death penalty. Some people need to die for the horrible things they've done.

Most people who object to the death penalty do so because of the imperfection of the justice system and the fallibility of man as judge and jury which results in the potential conviction and execution of an innocent and a miscarriage of justice.

At the same time, some people do deserve to die for their crimes. However, I have had to sit through enough 20/20s, 48 Hours, and similar shows with my wife that I know many times the truth will never be known. I've seen people convicted of murder when I wasn't convinced of their guilt. Although the show may have been edited to create more drama. I don't know.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-29-2015, 07:47 AM)PhilHos Wrote: When boogers, turds, and menstrual tissue are capable of becoming a human being, then maybe I will get involved.


It's as much a part of a woman's body has a tapeworm is. :snark:

In any event, the point being, as a separate entity, abortion is not about women doing things to their own bodies.

Is a uterus a part of a woman's body? What happens when you remove the fetus from the woman's uterus?

[Belsnickel]

(09-29-2015, 09:29 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: If you're pro choice, but also against the death penalty, I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy.

But I get the feeling the pro choicers in here would throw the switch themselves. I respect that.

Not hypocrisy at all. I am against our government making a life or death decision like that. Bein pro-choice and anti-death penalty takes that decision out of the hands of the government in both cases, and that is what I am for.

[Naranja Tigre]

(09-29-2015, 10:37 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm afraid I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy because you said you believe in evolution and Genesis then stated we either came from a common ancestor with apes or from God; but combining the two (as you have done personally) would only result in an episode of ancient aliens.

I believe in both but I've never combined the two. You could say ancient aliens, or you could say god's a biologist and earth is a Petri dish.

[Naranja Tigre]

(09-29-2015, 11:09 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not hypocrisy at all. I am against our government making a life or death decision like that. Bein pro-choice and anti-death penalty takes that decision out of the hands of the government in both cases, and that is what I am for.

Is it really in the hands of the government when a person is found guilty by a jury?

Would you be ok with the death penalty if it was decided by jury?

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-29-2015, 11:19 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: Is it really in the hands of the government when a person is found guilty by a jury?

Would you be ok with the death penalty if it was decided by jury?

Punishment is not meted out by the jury my friend.

[Naranja Tigre]

(09-29-2015, 11:23 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Punishment is not meted out by the jury my friend.

That's why I asked if he would be ok with it if the jury decided the punishment.

Didn't you just get all mad at me for ignoring points?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-29-2015, 08:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: That's exactly what is about.

Unless yo believe that a woman is just an incubator that has no autonomy.

No one LIKES that the fetus must be removed / killed.  But to say its not about a woman's control over her own body is absurd.

No it's not. It's about a woman's control over her body and that of her child's.

The point still remains that it's not A PART OF THE WOMAN'S BODY THAT SHE'S "REMOVING" BUT RATHER A SEPARATE ENTITY.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-29-2015, 09:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same way about abortion as I do the death penalty:  Horrible, awful thing to have to do that should only be done in the most extreme and responsible circumstances.

And I would argue that neither MUST be done...but in both cases I do not have be notified or consulted in order to do it.

You do realize that our country was founded on the belief that our government is OF the people, right? I know that's what it's TECHNICALLY supposed to be and that reality is far different, but still ...

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-29-2015, 11:33 AM)Naranja Tigre Wrote: That's why I asked if he would be ok with it if the jury decided the punishment.

Didn't you just get all mad at me for ignoring points?

I re-read it all again.  I guess I don't understand both questions being together.  One supposes that it's not in the hand of the government and the second supposes that it is and asks what if it was taken away form the government.  All in all it was incredibly confusing as to what you were on about.  So I decided to take the first one and show that it wasn't a valid question.

As for the second question, no.  I think balance is being provided when the jury decides guilt and the judge administers sentencing.