Jonah Williams’ shoulder injury likely predates time with Bengals

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-03-2019, 09:26 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: No shit.....it's as if some have never played sports.....I actually tore the labrum in my left shoulder by sleeping on it weird (of course, I was 40 at the time, so....).....true story.  It sounds and feels like a handful of gravels being rolled around when I move it, and hurt like hell for months.  I guess surgery will be required soon.....

You had a degenerative tear. With this type of tear the labrum tears doing an activity of daily living like combing your hair, reaching for a glass in a kitchen cabinet, getting your wallet out of your back pocket, or in your case, sleeping on that side.

It is not out of the realm of possibility Williams could have had degeneration in his labrum from years of football and weight lifting and it eventually tore doing something simple which you normally wouldn't expect in someone so young, but common in older adults.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-03-2019, 11:37 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You had a degenerative tear. With this type of tear the labrum tears doing an activity of daily living like combing your hair, reaching for a glass in a kitchen cabinet, getting your wallet out of your back pocket, or in your case, sleeping on that side.

It is not out of the realm of possibility Williams could have had degeneration in his labrum from years of football and weight lifting and it eventually tore doing something simple which you normally wouldn't expect in someone so young, but common in older adults.

Certainly makes sense in his case (and of course mine).....and I know you know your stuff regarding the medical field.

[fredtoast]

Same guy wrote this before the draft regarding all players with medical issues.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/pro-football-doc/story/2019-04-21/

No mention of Jonah at all.

Funny how he only claims to have known abut this issue AFTER the injury occurred.

[fortyyearfan]

(06-29-2019, 11:28 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It's possible people want to believe he had a lingering injury before he got here, rather than he was 100% healthy when he got here and went from that to "out for the year" almost immediately.

The response to losing someone instantly is that either that something was up with his injury before he got here, or that the Bengals are just cursed and men of the stoutest iron put on stripes and turn to jello.  Well, either that or the human body isn't designed to play football, but that goes against the whole "They're getting paid to play a game!" narrative.

Someone Tweet the guy and ask him to be honest with the bengals and us fans.Not that he would say crap about it,but at least we could put him on notice that we want the truth and if refuses to say squat to anyone,then we know what kind of guy he really is.If I were him,I would stay quiet until training camp and start your rehab and you better be a stud in 2020.Like a rook all-pro. :andy:

[grampahol]

Next up..The Bengals under the direction of Mike Brown intentionally draft injured players in the first round just so they can have them sit out their first season so the team can pay them to not play to reinforce the notion of Brown being cheap. Now that makes so much sense that nothing else in the history of sense ever made sense.. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-03-2019, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Same guy wrote this before the draft regarding all players with medical issues.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/pro-football-doc/story/2019-04-21/

No mention of Jonah at all.

Funny how he only claims to have known abut this issue AFTER the injury occurred.

It's also the same guy who correctly observed Jaylon Smith had a peroneal nerve injury resulting in a foot drop by noting the type of brace he was wearing when he posted video online of his physical therapy after his ACL surgery before the draft.

There was a bunch of talk in the media a former NFL team orthopedist shouldn't be putting this informative out there and hurting player's draft stock. Is he infallible? No. Does he know his stuff? Yes.

[XenoMorph]

(07-03-2019, 11:37 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You had a degenerative tear. With this type of tear the labrum tears doing an activity of daily living like combing your hair, reaching for a glass in a kitchen cabinet, getting your wallet out of your back pocket, or in your case, sleeping on that side.

It is not out of the realm of possibility Williams could have had degeneration in his labrum from years of football and weight lifting and it eventually tore doing something simple which you normally wouldn't expect in someone so young, but common in older adults.

happened In my knee with my meniscus(sp) 

[OSUfan]

(07-02-2019, 09:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well...and the question was posed by the author as to IF the Bengals knew he had the injury and IF they took him anyways because of his talent level.

People can say what they want about the main article being fake, but Williams did wear a shoulder harness on that shoulder in college towards the end of his career. The author also claims that you don't wear those for protective measures like a knee brace and that they are to provide stability for an injury.

I think it's also plausible that he was able to get by with the injury in college and then in the Pros where everyone is good, decided to have it fixed.

At the end of the day though...only Jonah likely knows. Whether it was before or after though, he's out for the year. That's the bottom line.

It apparently makes some people feel good to defend the Bengals by thinking that he got hurt in non-contact OTA's. So be it.

It is not about defending the Bengals and by the way OTAs are way more physical than you are giving them credit for being. Not to mention there is still lifting and strength training going on.

What you have not addressed at all is the medical examination at the NFL combine.

I found this article especially ironic (look at the publication name..lol)

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/profootballdoc/sd-sp-pfd-nfl-combine-medical-exams-0228-story.html

http://www.nflcombine.net/players/medical-note/

http://a.espncdn.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1343353.html

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1968230-an-inside-look-into-the-nfl-medical-exam-process-at-the-combine

http://www.mcall.com/sports/mc-fbn-combine-medical-0218-20150218-story.html

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-03-2019, 04:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: happened In my knee with my meniscus(sp) 

Getting old ain't for sissies.

But, I didn't use the word "sissies."

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-03-2019, 04:32 PM)OSUfan Wrote: It is not about defending the Bengals and by the way OTAs are way more physical than you are giving them credit for being. Not to mention there is still lifting and strength training going on.

What you have not addressed at all is the medical examination at the NFL combine.

I found this article especially ironic (look at the publication name..lol)

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/profootballdoc/sd-sp-pfd-nfl-combine-medical-exams-0228-story.html

http://www.nflcombine.net/players/medical-note/

http://a.espncdn.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1343353.html

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1968230-an-inside-look-into-the-nfl-medical-exam-process-at-the-combine

http://www.mcall.com/sports/mc-fbn-combine-medical-0218-20150218-story.html

Explain Antonio Bryant's time with the Bengals.

[OSUfan]

(07-03-2019, 04:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Explain Antonio Bryant's time with the Bengals.

What does the time that Antonio Bryant spent with the Bengals have to do in the least bit with the combine? Let me just get the answer out of the way...…………… NOTHING!

Bryant was a free agent signing which has absolutely zero to do with the medical examination at the NFL combine. Please try to stick with the conversation at hand.

[XenoMorph]

(07-03-2019, 04:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Explain Antonio Bryant's time with the Bengals.

Well its completely not related...  None of the staff that was around for that is still here.

[OSUfan]

(07-03-2019, 05:52 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well its completely not related...  None of the staff that was around for that is still here.

Exactly....I am completely lost how one could even come up with the comparison.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-03-2019, 05:39 PM)OSUfan Wrote: What does the time that Antonio Bryant spent with the Bengals have to do in the least bit with the combine? Let me just get the answer out of the way...…………… NOTHING!

Bryant was a free agent signing which has absolutely zero to do with the medical examination at the NFL combine. Please try to stick with the conversation at hand.

Antonio Bryant was a free agent coming off a season cut short by a knee injury. He passed his team physical with team doctors and never played again after the first day of training camp because of the same knee.

Duece Lutui wasnt cleared to play by Bengals doctors. Goes right back to Arizona and passes their physical.

Drew Brees wasnt cleared to play by the Dolphins. The Saints doctors cleared him and the rest as they say is history. Nick Saban would probably still be coaching in the NFL if he had Drew Brees.

Gaines Adams dropped dead at home from cardiomyopathy after playing three seasons in the NFL because it wasn't detected in high school, college, the combine, or during his annual team physicals. Plural.

1) The NFL doesn't have a uniform standard of what conditions are disqualifying so it varies from team to team.

2) The team doctors are the same doctors that conduct the combine physicals.

3) Physical exam tests like a Lachman's test for ACL instability are subjective. A McMurry's test for a meniscal tear only has a sensitivity of about 30% which means 70% of the time it is undetected during the physical exam.

4) Interpreting the various shades of black, white, and grey of an MRI is also subjective. MRIs have false positives and false negatives. I had shoulder surgery for a false positive for a labrum and rotator cuff tear, but when the did surgery they found neither of them were torn. It was just inflammation which was so bad it looked like a tear. False negatives give the impression everything is okay when it isn't and delays definitive surgery. Some conditions like a sports hernia or a small meniscal tear can evade detection with imaging and require surgery to finally make a diagnosis.

5). You act like you these exams are infallible and incapable of missing something, but that's just not true despite everyone's best efforts.

If you knew as much as you think you do, you would understand why the Antonio Bryant case is completely relevant and you wouldn't be completely lost. But, being completely lost isn't uncommon for you.

[OSUfan]

(07-03-2019, 09:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Antonio Bryant was a free agent coming off a season cut short by a knee injury. He passed his team physical with team doctors and never played again after the first day of training camp because of the same knee.

Duece Lutui wasnt cleared to play by Bengals doctors. Goes right back to Arizona and passes their physical.

Drew Brees wasnt cleared to play by the Dolphins. The Saints doctors cleared him and the rest as they say is history. Nick Saban would probably still be coaching in the NFL if he had Drew Brees.

Gaines Adams dropped dead at home from cardiomyopathy after playing three seasons in the NFL because it wasn't detected in high school, college, the combine, or during his annual team physicals. Plural.

1) The NFL doesn't have a uniform standard of what conditions are disqualifying so it varies from team to team.

2) The team doctors are the same doctors that conduct the combine physicals.

3) Physical exam tests like a Lachman's test for ACL instability are subjective. A McMurry's test for a meniscal tear only has a sensitivity of about 30% which means 70% of the time it is undetected during the physical exam.

4) Interpreting the various shades of black, white, and grey of an MRI is also subjective.   MRIs have false positives and false negatives. I had shoulder surgery for a false positive for a labrum and rotator cuff tear, but when the did surgery they found neither of them were torn. It was just inflammation which was so bad it looked like a tear. False negatives give the impression everything is okay when it isn't and delays definitive surgery. Some conditions like a sports hernia or a small meniscal tear can evade detection with imaging and require surgery to finally make a diagnosis.

5). You act like you these exams are infallible and incapable of missing something, but that's just not true despite everyone's best efforts.

If you knew as much as you think you do, you would understand why the Antonio Bryant case is completely relevant and you wouldn't be completely lost. But, being completely lost isn't uncommon for you.

So in layman terms you are stating that Jonah Williams had a Labrum tear that was bad enough to require surgery to repair it yet the medical staffs at the University of Alabama and the medical staffs at the combine were unable to detect that injury. Does that put all your jargon into basic terms well enough?

Which would mean as well that you believe that the physician who wrote the Tribune article is the only medical person in the sports industry that noticed Williams wearing the strap at Alabama and was the only one clever enough to consider that there was a possible shoulder ailment. Does this also sum up your premise?

[BengalChris]

(07-03-2019, 09:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Antonio Bryant was a free agent coming off a season cut short by a knee injury. He passed his team physical with team doctors and never played again after the first day of training camp because of the same knee.

Duece Lutui wasnt cleared to play by Bengals doctors. Goes right back to Arizona and passes their physical.

Drew Brees wasnt cleared to play by the Dolphins. The Saints doctors cleared him and the rest as they say is history. Nick Saban would probably still be coaching in the NFL if he had Drew Brees.

Gaines Adams dropped dead at home from cardiomyopathy after playing three seasons in the NFL because it wasn't detected in high school, college, the combine, or during his annual team physicals. Plural.

1) The NFL doesn't have a uniform standard of what conditions are disqualifying so it varies from team to team.

2) The team doctors are the same doctors that conduct the combine physicals.

3) Physical exam tests like a Lachman's test for ACL instability are subjective. A McMurry's test for a meniscal tear only has a sensitivity of about 30% which means 70% of the time it is undetected during the physical exam.

4) Interpreting the various shades of black, white, and grey of an MRI is also subjective.   MRIs have false positives and false negatives. I had shoulder surgery for a false positive for a labrum and rotator cuff tear, but when the did surgery they found neither of them were torn. It was just inflammation which was so bad it looked like a tear. False negatives give the impression everything is okay when it isn't and delays definitive surgery. Some conditions like a sports hernia or a small meniscal tear can evade detection with imaging and require surgery to finally make a diagnosis.

5). You act like you these exams are infallible and incapable of missing something, but that's just not true despite everyone's best efforts.

If you knew as much as you think you do, you would understand why the Antonio Bryant case is completely relevant and you wouldn't be completely lost. But, being completely lost isn't uncommon for you.

(07-03-2019, 10:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: So in layman terms you are stating that Jonah Williams had a Labrum tear that was bad enough to require surgery to repair it yet the medical staffs at the University of Alabama and the medical staffs at the combine were unable to detect that injury. Does that put all your jargon into basic terms well enough?

Which would mean as well that you believe that the physician who wrote the Tribune article is the only medical person in the sports industry that noticed Williams wearing the strap at Alabama and was the only one clever enough to consider that there was a possible shoulder ailment. Does this also sum up your premise?

I'm sure you both realize that all of this doesn't really matter much at this point. We picked Jonah Williams (and I loved the pick) and he's ours now. Possibly the team and/or other teams had an inkling that there might be something with his shoulder going into the draft and maybe not. We'll probably never know.



What might be more interesting is that the Bengals have selected players in the 1st round with existing injuries several times lately. Not counting Williams cause I don't know that they knew, we have Price, Ross and Ogbuehi who were all selected with existing injuries. Prices was an injury from the combine and he started 10 games as a rookie. Ogbuehi appeared sparingly in 5 games as a rookie before finally going on IR near the end of his rookie year. Ross appeared in 3 games his rookie season, hid a second injury, then went on IR the last few games of his rookie year.

Then besides those, the following 1st round picks also missed their entire rookie years with injuries sustained in OTAs or the pre-season: Kirkpatrick, Dennard, Jackson and now Williams.

Since 2012 of the Bengals' 1st round selections only Zietler, Eifert and Price played in more than 5 games during their rookie seasons and we've had 9 1st round selections during those 8 years.

In other words, 2/3rds of our 1st round picks couldn't even play in more than 5 games their rookie seasons. That's pretty astonishing I believe.

Why is this? I have no idea!

Is this more than other teams? I believe so, but honestly I haven't checked.


If we go back before 2012, we had AJ Green in 2011 who was amazing. Then in 2010 we Gresham who played in 15 games, starting 10 as a rookie. In 2009 we had Andre who started 1 game and played in 6 total games as a rookie. The three years before those we drafted Rivers (played in only 7 games as a rookie), Leon Hall and JJoe. Both Hall and JJoe played in 16 games their rookie seasons.

We've been getting more injured guys in the 1st lately, that's all I know for sure.

 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-03-2019, 10:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: So in layman terms you are stating that Jonah Williams had a Labrum tear that was bad enough to require surgery to repair it yet the medical staffs at the University of Alabama and the medical staffs at the combine were unable to detect that injury. Does that put all your jargon into basic terms well enough?

Which would mean as well that you believe that the physician who wrote the Tribune article is the only medical person in the sports industry that noticed Williams wearing the strap at Alabama and was the only one clever enough to consider that there was a possible shoulder ailment. Does this also sum up your premise?

You wanted someone to address the combine physicals and I did. I explained it in mostly layman's terms with a minimum of medical jargon. Even if you're unfamiliar with the medical terms the point is still clear. So don't pretend like you don't understand. Don't put words in my mouth you clearly know I didn't intend.

John Ross' rookie season was ended by a torn labrum and he didn't know it was torn, when it was torn, how long it was torn, or how he tore it. Weird stuff happens.

How do you know the doctors at Alabama and the combine didn't detect something in Williams' shoulder? How do you know he wasn't covering something up from last season until after the draft and it was exacerbated during the non-contact drills? You don't. You're speculating everything was normal just as others have speculated there may have been a pre-existing condition.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2019, 12:00 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm sure you both realize that all of this doesn't really matter much at this point. We picked Jonah Williams (and I loved the pick) and he's ours now. Possibly the team and/or other teams had an inkling that there might be something with his shoulder going into the draft and maybe not. We'll probably never know.



What might be more interesting is that the Bengals have selected players in the 1st round with existing injuries several times lately. Not counting Williams cause I don't know that they knew, we have Price, Ross and Ogbuehi who were all selected with existing injuries. Prices was an injury from the combine and he started 10 games as a rookie. Ogbuehi appeared sparingly in 5 games as a rookie before finally going on IR near the end of his rookie year. Ross appeared in 3 games his rookie season, hid a second injury, then went on IR the last few games of his rookie year.

Then besides those, the following 1st round picks also missed their entire rookie years with injuries sustained in OTAs or the pre-season: Kirkpatrick, Dennard, Jackson and now Williams.

Since 2012 of the Bengals' 1st round selections only Zietler, Eifert and Price played in more than 5 games during their rookie seasons and we've had 9 1st round selections during those 8 years.

In other words, 2/3rds of our 1st round picks couldn't even play in more than 5 games their rookie seasons. That's pretty astonishing I believe.

Why is this? I have no idea!

Is this more than other teams? I believe so, but honestly I haven't checked.


If we go back before 2012, we had AJ Green in 2011 who was amazing. Then in 2010 we Gresham who played in 15 games, starting 10 as a rookie. In 2009 we had Andre who started 1 game and played in 6 total games as a rookie. The three years before those we drafted Rivers (played in only 7 games as a rookie), Leon Hall and JJoe. Both Hall and JJoe played in 16 games their rookie seasons.

We've been getting more injured guys in the 1st lately, that's all I know for sure.

 

Excellent points some refuse to acknowledge.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-04-2019, 12:00 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm sure you both realize that all of this doesn't really matter much at this point. We picked Jonah Williams (and I loved the pick) and he's ours now. Possibly the team and/or other teams had an inkling that there might be something with his shoulder going into the draft and maybe not. We'll probably never know.



What might be more interesting is that the Bengals have selected players in the 1st round with existing injuries several times lately. Not counting Williams cause I don't know that they knew, we have Price, Ross and Ogbuehi who were all selected with existing injuries. Prices was an injury from the combine and he started 10 games as a rookie. Ogbuehi appeared sparingly in 5 games as a rookie before finally going on IR near the end of his rookie year. Ross appeared in 3 games his rookie season, hid a second injury, then went on IR the last few games of his rookie year.

Then besides those, the following 1st round picks also missed their entire rookie years with injuries sustained in OTAs or the pre-season: Kirkpatrick, Dennard, Jackson and now Williams.

Since 2012 of the Bengals' 1st round selections only Zietler, Eifert and Price played in more than 5 games during their rookie seasons and we've had 9 1st round selections during those 8 years.

In other words, 2/3rds of our 1st round picks couldn't even play in more than 5 games their rookie seasons. That's pretty astonishing I believe.

Why is this? I have no idea!

Is this more than other teams? I believe so, but honestly I haven't checked.


If we go back before 2012, we had AJ Green in 2011 who was amazing. Then in 2010 we Gresham who played in 15 games, starting 10 as a rookie. In 2009 we had Andre who started 1 game and played in 6 total games as a rookie. The three years before those we drafted Rivers (played in only 7 games as a rookie), Leon Hall and JJoe. Both Hall and JJoe played in 16 games their rookie seasons.

We've been getting more injured guys in the 1st lately, that's all I know for sure.

 

Yep...and lets face it, the Bengals rely on those rookie deals more than some other teams as they don't heavily use free agency. We know rookie deals are cheaper...and we end up having most of our 1st Round picks play 4 of 5 or 3 of 5 years due to these injuries...

That's extremely costly.

Some injuries are freak luck, but it seems to happen way more to the Bengals than most teams.

And I think injuries are valid fodder to discuss too as health was cited for the teams poor performance last year and then bam to start this year Williams and Boling go down. Well Boling is unknown at this point, but it doesn't seem good with all the Guards they signed.