How Much Power Does ZT Have?

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: k

I never called anybody a fool.  Show me where I have.

[*jason*]

(09-03-2019, 09:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Right. So ZT will show how bad Marvin was...

Except Lazor gets fired in Miami and ZT takes over and the offense gets WORSE.

And he produces the 123rd ranked offense at U of Cincy...but apparently I don't realize things about the circumstances. ie Why he underperformed and was fired.

ZT has done NOTHING except ride the McVay hype train. Maybe he develops into a good coach? But, I'd say the odds are stacked against him, plus he has to deal with Bengals Management.

Jared Goff and Robert Woods had their best seasons up to that point of their careers under ZT. Cooper Kupp also developed nicely as a rookie. That's SOMETHING.

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Good thing your opinion of my fandom doesn't matter. 

You're absolutely right.  It doesn't.  Apparently, it doesn't take much to make you laugh like hell.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 09:46 PM)McC Wrote: We're done here.  I get it.  123.  123.  123.  123.  123. 123.  123.  123.  Has it been repeated enough for you yet?  Judgment Day--Sunday,
4:15-ish.

You claimed I needed to know something about that season that would put it all in perspective. What is it?

[*Nately120*]

(09-03-2019, 09:37 PM)McC Wrote: Nothing happens in a vacuum.  Intelligent people know that.  Ask a UC fan about that season.  Oops, never mind, won't fit your narrative.

That's alright.  Judgment day is not far away and then we'll see about your narrative, won't we?

See what?  Even if we have a bad year this year we can say it's not ZT's fault because he has a (probably) garbage DC, the worst owner in the NFL (well, maybe this side of Detroit), we did nothing in FA, our best player is injured (if AJ is still out best player) and so on.  There are many reasons ZT can fail this year and we can push the blame elsewhere with ease.

We had the worst defense in the league last year and a guy who might be the Zampese of DC's is in charge of the defense while our offensive-minded rookie HC will have to depend quite heavily upon him.  My prediction?  If things go bad this year we're just going to say "Bellichik couldn't have succeeded with Lou Anarumo and this defense!"

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You shouldn't use words like "fool" if you are not man enough to admit that you did.

I called no one a fool.  Who specifically did I call a fool?

Cue more Fred double talk...

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 09:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: See what?  Even if we have a bad year this year we can say it's not ZT's fault because he has a (probably) garbage DC, the worst owner in the NFL (well, maybe this side of Detroit), we did nothing in FA, our best player is injured (if AJ is still out best player) and so on.  There are many reasons ZT can fail this year and we can push the blame elsewhere with ease.

We had the worst defense in the league last year and a guy who might be the Zampese of DC's is in charge of the defense while our offensive-minded rookie HC will have to depend quite heavily upon him.  My prediction?  If things go bad this year we're just going to say "Bellichik couldn't have succeeded with Lou Anarumo and this defense!"

It happens every year.

Plus, Jonah was injured. We get a 2nd 1st Round pick next year when he returns!!!

Boling retirement. Green hurt. Ross missing camp.

There are always excuses.

Heck, when you haven't won a playoff game in 28+ years you rationalize things.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 09:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I 100% agree.

I was not upset by the hiring of Taylor, but it got worse with the shabby inexperienced staff they built around him and then went farther downhill when we did nothing in free agency to help improve the talent level of the team.

I am actually willing to ay Taylor will not be to blame if the Bengals suck this year but McC is insisting that every single decision about the coaching staff and the roster was 100% Taylor's doing.  So if things do go south he will have to admit that it was 100% Taylor's fault.

Honestly, when most teams bring in a HC...coming off of 3 losing seasons, they go out and make some type of free agency splash to upgrade the roster and show the fanbase that they are serious about winning.

The Bengals announced re-signing Hart almost immediately once free agency began.

It's shocking that they didn't upgrade the roster.

The weird thing is most of the guys they signed were connected to Taylor, Lou, or Turner in some way.

So, either ZT did pick free agents/coaches and valued comfort and inept at it.

Or, he had very little input. 1 input out for 4 or 5 that is the Bengals decision making schema.

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I 100% agree.

I was not upset by the hiring of Taylor, but it got worse with the shabby inexperienced staff they built around him and then went farther downhill when we did nothing in free agency to help improve the talent level of the team.

I am actually willing to ay Taylor will not be to blame if the Bengals suck this year but McC is insisting that every single decision about the coaching staff and the roster was 100% Taylor's doing.  So if things do go south he will have to admit that it was 100% Taylor's fault.

I never said that at ll.  What I actually said(not that you will acknowledge it or even care) is that he has exactly as much power as he wanted.  I never said he got or even asked for all the power.  I'm saying he took the job because he got to do things the way he wanted and I'll stand by that. 

I'm sure he doesn't run the whole organization, but I do believe that he did get to call the shots that mattered to him, such as what coac hes stay or go and who his final roster will be.  Does anybody really think it was MIke's idea to pay almost an entire staff to not work for him?   How hard is it to see that?

I don't know who made the calls on free agency but I do know that there were really slim pickings out there in our areas of need unless you were willing to throw crazy contracts at guys who didn't really merit them.

I don't see what's so outrageous about that or how it is any way a jab at Marvin.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 10:54 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: How long are you gonna beat that drum ? You've posted that line a hundred times. You do understand that every single HC ever was a HC for the first time once don't you ?

None of us not one, have any idea what's going to happen down the road with how well or bad this team will do under ZT. But I'm not going to place that much emphasis on what he was the last few years. He seems to have a good football mind, he knows where he wants to go. Just look at the roster compared to years past. The cuts, the guys retained.

The change in practice, the time clock during practice and on and on. Am I saying ZT is the bomb ? No

But I'm willing to give the guy a chance

I think we're all willing to see how this turns out, but the fact is that ZT does have a track record...and it hasn't been successful other than maybe as a qb coach.

His offenses when he was OC have been REALLY BAD.

When adding a practice clock to the practice field is your huge achievement that excites the fanbase...it's not that promising. You know, probably most teams in the league have clocks on their practice fields. That's not some innovative thing.

[*Nately120*]

(09-03-2019, 09:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, when most teams bring in a HC...coming off of 3 losing seasons, they go out and make some type of free agency splash to upgrade the roster and show the fanbase that they are serious about winning.

The Bengals announced re-signing Hart almost immediately once free agency began.

It's shocking that they didn't upgrade the roster.

The weird thing is most of the guys they signed were connected to Taylor, Lou, or Turner in some way.

So, either ZT did pick free agents/coaches and valued comfort and inept at it.

Or, he had very little input. 1 input out for 4 or 5 that is the Bengals decision making schema.

We shall see how things shake out, but I realize how much optimism goes into having faith our non moves will make us better and the Browns getting a GM and making big moves will lead to their implosion. 

Time will tell, and give us something new to debate. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-03-2019, 09:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Right, because clearly the reason Marvin did not have clocks on the practice field was because Mike Brown opposed them.

True (i agree with the sarcasm). Also, i don't believe Taylor has carte blanche. People need to understand that this is still Mike Brown's team. He may loosen his grip from time to time (slowly) to try something new if he believes it will help the team, but his name is on the checks. If he really doesn't want or believe in something, it's not going to happen. 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 09:16 PM)McC Wrote: Of course it matters.  Are you daft?

(09-03-2019, 10:04 PM)McC Wrote: I never said that at ll.  What I actually said(not that you will acknowledge it or even care) is that he has exactly as much power as he wanted.  I never said he got or even asked for all the power.  I'm saying he took the job because he got to do things the way he wanted and I'll stand by that. 

I'm sure he doesn't run the whole organization, but I do believe that he did get to call the shots that mattered to him, such as what coac hes stay or go and who his final roster will be.  Does anybody really think it was MIke's idea to pay almost an entire staff to not work for him?   How hard is it to see that?

I don't know who made the calls on free agency but I do know that there were really slim pickings out there in our areas of need unless you were willing to throw crazy contracts at guys who didn't really merit them.

I don't see what's so outrageous about that or how it is any way a jab at Marvin.

So then we can blame the DC debacle on him where we were down to what? Choice 5 or 6? And hiring an inexperienced staff.

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone who could not see the signs that Taylor was given 100% control of all decisions.  That includes me.

If I am wrong then YOU please explain who you were calling a fool.


Cue more McC chickenshit backpeddling

I never once said he had 100% control.  Never once.  To compensate for your seeming lack of understanding, let me make it crystal clear--if you look at the things that happened, it's pretty easy to see what power he was given.

Maybe if you stopped looking so hard to pick a fight, these simple things might become apparent to you.

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 10:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So then we can blame the DC debacle on him where we were down to what? Choice 5 or 6? And hiring an inexperienced staff.

Judgment Day.  Sunday.  4:15 EDT.  Maybe we'll talk after.

Until then, I've seen all your loops as much as I need to.

[*Nately120*]

(09-03-2019, 10:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: True (i agree with the sarcasm). Also, i don't believe Taylor has carte blanche. People need to understand that this is still Mike Brown's team. He may loosen his grip from time to time (slowly) to try something new if he believes it will help the team, but his name is on the checks. If he really doesn't want or believe in something, it's not going to happen. 

I assume we will fully realize Mike Brown is still calling the shots as soon as anything goes wrong. 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 10:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: True (i agree with the sarcasm). Also, i don't believe Taylor has carte blanche. People need to understand that this is still Mike Brown's team. He may loosen his grip from time to time (slowly) to try something new if he believes it will help the team, but his name is on the checks. If he really doesn't want or believe in something, it's not going to happen. 

How I read a while back decisions are made is every day MB, Katie, Troy, and Tobin meet with ZT...and it's like a 5 person committee for decisions.

How the decisions shake out  when there is a disagreement...who knows? But, when you have 3 family members and a guy like Tobin who was there so long...I'm sure there's a lot of groupthink.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 10:10 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I assume we will fully realize Mike Brown is still calling the shots as soon as anything goes wrong. 

Yes...his illustrious reign as GM has produced a total of 0 playoff wins in some 27 years.

But hey...he hires an inexperienced HC and it's a great move! Inexperienced coordinators? Trust ZT.

It's great!

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-03-2019, 10:54 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: How long are you gonna beat that drum ? You've posted that line a hundred times. You do understand that every single HC ever was a HC for the first time once don't you ?

None of us not one, have any idea what's going to happen down the road with how well or bad this team will do under ZT. But I'm not going to place that much emphasis on what he was the last few years. He seems to have a good football mind, he knows where he wants to go. Just look at the roster compared to years past. The cuts, the guys retained.

The change in practice, the time clock during practice and on and on. Am I saying ZT is the bomb ? No

But I'm willing to give the guy a chance

We talked and raved about all the changes last year and about how it seemed so unlike a MB owned, Marv coached team...and it went right down the toilet (due to injuries). But down the toilet none-the-less. This year, they go in a new direction that looks good and current by NFL standards...but we won't know how that turns out for some time. 

There are always going to be things to find that fans don't agree with and i have my hand up as one that is ready to jump on those situations and point them out. That said, if you want to be fair, you can't deny that for the second year in a row, this team has tried different things that most fans weren't unaccustomed to for a long time. 

I'll be ready to point out failures when they happen, but i'm not going to deny that they have been clearly trying to do things to win. 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 10:16 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: We talked and raved about all the changes last year and about how it seemed so unlike a MB owned, Marv coached team...and it went right down the toilet (due to injuries). But down the toilet none-the-less. This year, they go in a new direction that looks good and current by NFL standards...but we won't know how that turns out for some time. 

There are always going to be things to find that fans don't agree with and i have my hand up as one that is ready to jump on those situations and point them out. That said, if you want to be fair, you can't deny that for the second year in a row, this team has tried different things that most fans weren't unaccustomed to for a long time. 

I'll be ready to point out failures when they happen, but i'm not going to deny that they have been clearly trying to do things to win. 

Injuries were one thing last year, but hiring Austin as the DC backfired too for whatever reason.

Anytime you bring in new coaches/new systems...there is risk that guys can't learn it.