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(01-08-2020, 06:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you are a little confused.
FOXNews is the one who brags about how unstable Trump is. In fact they claim that his strength in international policy is the fact that he is unpredictable and likely to nuke a county like Iran or North Korea. Supposedly that is so much better than the other recent Presidential pusssies who everyone knew could control themselves.
Not confused at all.
The MSM always does a good job of reminding us of who has the nuclear codes.
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Guys. The Commander in Chief of the United States must have credibility. All politics aside.
Now we all (even Trump supporters I now see) know Trump doesn't, so his threat means nothing to them as it didn't with IRAN. But that is nothing to celebrate. We should all be outraged that Iran threatened us not to retaliate and we stood down.
They should have been the ones to stand down after our threat. That's American military might. Not the other way around. This is the twilight zone we are living. We all knew it was the twilight zone under this Presidency but this takes the cake as it's our military reputation that takes the hit for his ineptness.
The line has to be drawn somewhere peoples. Our Military should be that line.
No Commander in Chief of the United States has ever stood down at the order/threat of a foreign enemy after they've retaliated against an attack of their own ignoring our threat/order. Don't just disagree. Name one if you can. It's a lost unlike anything seen since Vietnam.
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(01-08-2020, 04:27 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Iran said the US had a small dick. The US dropped their pants and showed a porn dick. Then Iran dropped their pants, showed a chode, and said they had a bigger dick.
No one but Iran believes that Iran looked tough.
We retaliated to the embassy attack by targeting and killing a top Iranian official. They responded to that by showing that their military is vastly inferior to ours. Shrugging that off as a "That's it?" and walking away is absolutely a "win"... AS OF NOW.
I may not agree with the initial strike, but walking away now shows strength and good judgement. Even better judgement would be saying to Iran "Look, clearly we outmatch you. Come to the table to negotiate or we will be forced to take your weak attacks seriously".
If only we could('ve) worked out some sort of deal with Iran...
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(01-08-2020, 06:07 PM)jj22 Wrote: It is. But when you put you make your bed...... And Trump did when he issued the threats.
When you go there it leaves you no choice if you want creditability. He should have at least backed down on his on terms. Not after Iran made their threat.
Not escalating this is absolutely the right move for the citizens of the United States.
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(01-08-2020, 07:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: Guys. The Commander in Chief of the United States must have credibility. All politics aside.
Now we all (even Trump supporters I now see) know Trump doesn't, so his threat means nothing to them as it didn't with IRAN. But that is nothing to celebrate. We should all be outraged that Iran threatened us not to retaliate and we stood down.
They should have been the ones to stand down after our threat. That's American military might. Not the other way around. This is the twilight zone we are living. We all knew it was the twilight zone under this Presidency but this takes the cake as it's our military reputation that takes the hit for his ineptness.
The line has to be drawn somewhere peoples. Our Military should be that line.
No Commander in Chief of the United States has ever stood down at the order/threat of a foreign enemy after they've retaliated against an attack of their own ignoring our threat/order. Don't just disagree. Name one if you can. It's a lost unlike anything seen since Vietnam.
I often agree with you JJ, but not on this point.
I mean, I agree that the US must have credibility, and that generally means following through with threats. But it also means that the "threats" have to be considered, thought through, clearly in the national interest, not random impulse, or worse.
If an ill-prepared and temperamentally unfit US president makes childish threats with little understanding of the consequences, then US credibility actually suffers more if he follows through than if he does not. The choice he thereby creates is between 1) another endless war in which thousands of Americans and Iranians die, or 2) a little backdown humiliation, not even registered by most Americans who still see it as a big "win" in a macho standoff. Thousands of families are spared the death of a loved one so that the US can "save face."
This brings us back to the original problem--it is not that the US is not following through with threats, but that the US president is issuing threats whose consequences he does not himself grasp and which bring us to the brink of war. In this case, we should be thankful if voters, Congress and diplomatic pressure from our allies can pressure that leader NOT to follow through.
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I just started looking but has anyone said the intel justified the action yet?
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(01-08-2020, 08:32 PM)Dill Wrote: I often agree with you JJ, but not on this point.
I mean, I agree that the US must have credibility, and that generally means following through with threats. But it also means that the "threats" have to be considered, thought through, clearly in the national interest, not random impulse, or worse.
If an ill-prepared and temperamentally unfit US president makes childish threats with little understanding of the consequences, then US credibility actually suffers more if he follows through than if he does not. The choice he thereby creates is between 1) another endless war in which thousands of Americans and Iranians die, or 2) a little backdown humiliation, not even registered by most Americans who still see it as a big "win" in a macho standoff. Thousands of families are spared the death of a loved one so that the US can "save face."
This brings us back to the original problem--it is not that the US is not following through with threats, but that the US president is issuing threats whose consequences he does not himself grasp and which bring us to the brink of war. In this case, we should be thankful if voters, Congress and diplomatic pressure from our allies can pressure that leader NOT to follow through.
I don't disagree with any of this.
Trump should have kept his mouth shut.
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(01-08-2020, 09:26 PM)Benton Wrote: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/insulting-demeaning-lawmakers-rip-trump-administration-after-iran-briefing-n1112596?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR0QOK887nNBueBmQNTy8KFzWGdItlMLQWXHc4Bi82U5_lU2vD9x2BXuBjA
From Republicans, doesn't sound like there was a current threat.
Republicans incredibly close to Trump are calling it a very convincing, well done briefing. Republicans not as beholden to Trump are trashing it, along with Democrats.
Often times you meet the two parties in the middle, but I'm guessing that Paul and Lee are telling it like it was.
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(01-08-2020, 06:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How is the Iraqi government ordering US troops to leave a good thing?
Seems to me it will just open the door for the rise of more radical terrorists groups in Iraq.
Seemed like way back in post #116 you were ready for us to leave. Iraq has asked us to leave and I hope we honor their request; there's other countries in the ME that will welcome our aid. I'll just chalk it up to be careful what you ask for. WTS, I still consider the elimination of this head of a terrorist organization that targets innocent Americans and our allies to be a good thing. I guess we'll just disagree on that.
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(01-08-2020, 09:26 PM)Benton Wrote: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/insulting-demeaning-lawmakers-rip-trump-administration-after-iran-briefing-n1112596?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR0QOK887nNBueBmQNTy8KFzWGdItlMLQWXHc4Bi82U5_lU2vD9x2BXuBjA
From Republicans, doesn't sound like there was a current threat.
I see this as the GOP being unhappy with the briefing they received. Nowhere did I read a republican saying there was no current threat. Perhaps you could point it out.
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(01-08-2020, 10:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I see this as the GOP being unhappy with the briefing they received. Nowhere did I read a republican saying there was no current threat. Perhaps you could point it out.
Would Lee likely change his vote on a war power measures if the president was attacking an imminent threat?
Not current, I think everyone would agree Iran can be a threat at any given time, but imminent.
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(01-08-2020, 11:27 PM)Benton Wrote: Would Lee likely change his vote on a war power measures if the president was attacking an imminent threat?
Not current, I think everyone would agree Iran can be a threat at any given time, but imminent.
As I thought they never said what you suggested
He was unhappy with the briefing received; nowhere did he or any GOP sat a threat wasn't imminent. It just seems they want a more thorough briefing. it's why he said he felt like a child getting talked to.
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(01-09-2020, 12:48 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As I thought they never said what you suggested
He was unhappy with the briefing received; nowhere did he or any GOP sat a threat wasn't imminent. It just seems they want a more thorough briefing. it's why he said he felt like a child getting talked to.
Do you grasp that straw with the left hand or the right?
I'm guessing the right.
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I remember my first misguided republican initiated Middle East war.
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(01-09-2020, 03:38 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I remember my first misguided republican initiated Middle East war.
The Kuwait situation was one thing. We had a clear goal, we acheived that goal, we left.
The Iraq invasion was all sorts of a mess. The goal was unattainable short of wiping out all of the middle East. And it's just gotten worse.
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(01-09-2020, 04:57 AM)Benton Wrote: The Kuwait situation was one thing. We had a clear goal, we acheived that goal, we left.
The Iraq invasion was all sorts of a mess. The goal was unattainable short of wiping out all of the middle East. And it's just gotten worse.
This is all thanks to Congress, to be quite frank. Congress has failed to rein in the President ever since Bush. They passed two AUMFs with specific purposes. The first one has been used to justify many actions that it was not intended to cover and what has Congress done? Not a damn thing. A few members have tut-tutted about, but the legislative body has the power to put a stop to it and has refused to.
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(01-09-2020, 08:26 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is all thanks to Congress, to be quite frank. Congress has failed to rein in the President ever since Bush. They passed two AUMFs with specific purposes. The first one has been used to justify many actions that it was not intended to cover and what has Congress done? Not a damn thing. A few members have tut-tutted about, but the legislative body has the power to put a stop to it and has refused to.
Agreed. And it's mind boggling.
We're two decades (nearly) into military action to deal with terrorists responsible for an attack on us soil (at least, that was how it was sold). 20 years and it's not working? It's like our military is being led by Marvin Lewis with Congress serving as the Brown family. 'well, it's really hard to win, so we'll just see how this plays out.'
It's not working. And Congress isn't doing their job by throwing money at it year after year.
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