Impeachment Hearings

[HarleyDog]

(01-25-2020, 11:46 AM)hollodero Wrote: You're a good man.


--- Also, why oh why had Schiff to bring this head on a pike story?

I was actually watching live when he said that. Not a good way to end 3 days of presentations.

[hollodero]

(01-25-2020, 11:57 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I was actually watching live when he said that. Not a good way to end 3 days of presentations.

Nope, it is not.

[Belsnickel]

In an interesting new development: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/us/politics/trump-bolton-book-ukraine.html

Quote:WASHINGTON — President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.

The president’s statement as described by Mr. Bolton could undercut a key element of his impeachment defense: that the holdup in aid was separate from Mr. Trump’s requests that Ukraine announce investigations into his perceived enemies, including former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son Hunter Biden, who had worked for a Ukrainian energy firm while his father was in office.

Now, I'm no John Bolton fan and I'm not going to jump on the whole bandwagon we see some folks where he is touted as a savior for the resistance. I disagree with John Bolton on matters of policy and I find some of his positions reprehensible. What I don't see John Bolton as, however, is an attention seeker or a liar, which are two things that Trump undeniably is.

Whether a Senator is on one side or the other, they should now want to see Bolton in the Senate to answer questions related to this claim. The two sides would have different aims with their questions, but ignoring this accusation during the trial would be a miscarriage of justice in either direction.

[GMDino]

(01-25-2020, 11:57 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I was actually watching live when he said that. Not a good way to end 3 days of presentations.

(01-25-2020, 12:13 PM)hollodero Wrote: Nope, it is not.

He said he hoped it wasn't true.  And it plays to the narrative that the senators are afraid to do the right thing because of what Trump says to and about them.

And Schiff is right.  

[GMDino]

(01-27-2020, 10:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: In an interesting new development: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/us/politics/trump-bolton-book-ukraine.html


Now, I'm no John Bolton fan and I'm not going to jump on the whole bandwagon we see some folks where he is touted as a savior for the resistance. I disagree with John Bolton on matters of policy and I find some of his positions reprehensible. What I don't see John Bolton as, however, is an attention seeker or a liar, which are two things that Trump undeniably is.

Whether a Senator is on one side or the other, they should now want to see Bolton in the Senate to answer questions related to this claim. The two sides would have different aims with their questions, but ignoring this accusation during the trial would be a miscarriage of justice in either direction.

I just can't see the gop voting no on him as a witness, but I can see them wanting someone with no knowledge of the situation (Biden) just to make a mockery of the proceedings in exchange.

Edit to add that DJT spoke up this morning.

The Democrat controlled House never even asked John Bolton to testify. It is up to them, not up to the Senate!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 27, 2020

[BmorePat87]

It seems likely that the reports are true given Trump's tweet storm.

[BmorePat87]

Pompeo trying to suggest that the Kelly pointed to Bangladesh instead of Ukraine was a poorly constructed lie.

[GMDino]

(01-27-2020, 11:11 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Pompeo trying to suggest that the Kelly pointed to Bangladesh instead of Ukraine was a poorly constructed lie.

That's the kind of lie that will keep him from being one of the first ones taken in the rapture that he thinks is coming. 

[hollodero]

(01-27-2020, 10:58 AM)GMDino Wrote: He said he hoped it wasn't true.  And it plays to the narrative that the senators are afraid to do the right thing because of what Trump says to and about them.

And Schiff is right.  

"I hope it isn't true" seems a bit akin to "someone said". It is not the blanket permission to say just anything.

In this case Schiff probably said something that was hefty and probably wasn't true. At least it's reasonable enough to believe it is hefty and might not be true that it fits the right's narrative way better than the left's. Also, he won't win Collins et al. over with that. Which would be the goal.

And he brought the line for what? I dislike "the ends justify the means" arguments in general, but in this case this doesn't even apply. He could have done just fine without that, just by using a line simiilar to yours for example. But now, the pro Trump folk can attack him for that and I for one couldn't defend him. I mean, heads on a pike. You better doublecheck that one before saying it to the US senate.

[HarleyDog]

(01-27-2020, 10:58 AM)GMDino Wrote: He said he hoped it wasn't true.  And it plays to the narrative that the senators are afraid to do the right thing because of what Trump says to and about them.

And Schiff is right.  

It had no place and even sounded made up. If I'm Joe Shmoe watching this and hear it, I easily question the rest of everything else presented. He did the same with the call transcript. 

[GMDino]

(01-27-2020, 11:25 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: It had no place and even sounded made up. If I'm Joe Shmoe watching this and hear it, I easily question the rest of everything else presented. He did the same with the call transcript. 

Oh, like the faux "outrage" from the gop over it.

Got it.

I'm just not buying they were ssooooosoooooo offended by that they will NOW ignore everything else.  It's all just BS.  They would have had some other "reason" if it wasn't for that.

[GMDino]

(01-27-2020, 11:24 AM)hollodero Wrote: "I hope it isn't true" seems a bit akin to "someone said". It is not the blanket permission to say just anything.

In this case Schiff probably said something that was hefty and probably wasn't true. At least it's reasonable enough to believe it is hefty and might not be true that it fits the right's narrative way better than the left's. Also, he won't win Collins et al. over with that. Which would be the goal.

And he brought the line for what? I dislike "the ends justify the means" arguments in general, but in this case this doesn't even apply. He could have done just fine without that, just by using a line simiilar to yours for example. But now, the pro Trump folk can attack him for that and I for one couldn't defend him. I mean, heads on a pike. You better doublecheck that one before saying it to the US senate.

The gop is ssooooooooosoooooo upset about one line.  That's laughable.

24 hours of testimony was being ignored no matter what Schiff said and I won't justify this fake outrage with hours of debate.

They don't like it. They said they didn't like it.  It is no excuse to ignore their duties.

[hollodero]

(01-27-2020, 11:25 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: He did the same with the call transcript. 

Yeah I disagree with that too. Sorry. Obviously I just want to start the day by pissing off everyone.

Schiff interpreted the transcript. But the transcript is there for everyone to read and the key passages' exact words were shown a thousand times. Schiff did not try to deliberately misrepresent it, he interpreted it. I find it hard to call it unfair or a lie to put a spin to a readout. It happens all the time.

[hollodero]

(01-27-2020, 11:33 AM)GMDino Wrote: The gop is ssooooooooosoooooo upset about one line.  That's laughable.

24 hours of testimony was being ignored no matter what Schiff said and I won't justify this fake outrage with hours of debate.

They don't like it. They said they didn't like it.  It is no excuse to ignore their duties.

It isn't. I didn't say it should be. 

My, I called senators neutered, sycophants, ethics-free and all that a thousand times. I wouldn't go to senate and say it. Not just because I'd be too scared (which certainly is true), but also because it does not help the cause in any way.

And yeah, it is of course not important. Bolton is important. But still, if you want to actually want to get something out of this whole thing, you have to think a bit less righteous and a bit more strategic. For example, don't piss off Collins just so. I mean, that's common sense. And this kind of stuff actually decides what's next, as unfortunate as that is. Schiff has to get that. Sorry.


Also, it still was a gross term based on mere rumors. It is no excuse for anything. But it was a blunder. Because he also has to get that this is good fodder.

PS Don't get me wrong, if he pisses someone off by telling the factual truth, more power to him. But this one wasn't a fact.

[GMDino]

If Schiff referring to the news story had them all a flutter I can only IMAGINE how those pearl-clutching gop senators felt when reading this:

Our case against lyin’, cheatin’, liddle’ Adam “Shifty” Schiff, Cryin’ Chuck Schumer, Nervous Nancy Pelosi, their leader, dumb as a rock AOC, & the entire Radical Left, Do Nothing Democrat Party, starts today at 10:00 A.M. on @FoxNews, @OANN or Fake News @CNN or Fake News MSDNC!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 25, 2020

Their poor, poor sensibilities!

[hollodero]

(01-27-2020, 11:42 AM)GMDino Wrote: If Schiff referring to the news story had them all a flutter I can only IMAGINE how those pearl-clutching gop senators felt when reading this:

Our case against lyin’, cheatin’, liddle’ Adam “Shifty” Schiff, Cryin’ Chuck Schumer, Nervous Nancy Pelosi, their leader, dumb as a rock AOC, & the entire Radical Left, Do Nothing Democrat Party, starts today at 10:00 A.M. on @FoxNews, @OANN or Fake News @CNN or Fake News MSDNC!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 25, 2020

Their poor, poor sensibilities!

Two wrongs...

...or what is the argument? That Trump lowered the bar so much that it's perfectly acceptable to meet him halfway?

[Belsnickel]

(01-27-2020, 11:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Edit to add that DJT spoke up this morning.

The Democrat controlled House never even asked John Bolton to testify. It is up to them, not up to the Senate!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 27, 2020

Which is a lie, just strengthening my statement.

[GMDino]

(01-27-2020, 11:49 AM)hollodero Wrote: Two wrongs...

...or what is the argument? That Trump lowered the bar so much that it's perfectly acceptable to meet him halfway?

No argument other than I don't believe they were offended by what Schiff said any more than by what Trump said but it makes for a nice excuse to do what he said they were going to do and be afraid of Trump.

Like I said it's not worth the time to argue one line in 24 hours of speeches.

[hollodero]

(01-27-2020, 12:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: No argument other than I don't believe they were offended by what Schiff said any more than by what Trump said but it makes for a nice excuse to do what he said they were going to do and be afraid of Trump.

Like I said it's not worth the time to argue one line in 24 hours of speeches.

Like I implied, I agree it probably is not, but sadly this is the stuff that might actually decide how this one turns out. Sure, it is an easy excuse. But even if. Then Schiff gave them one without need.

And in that sense, I disliked Schiff saying that very much.
Also, I would have held him to a higher standard. Like don't spread rumours. After all, that's what he did. It was not quite what the moment seemed to demand.

[GMDino]

we all knew it would come to this, and yet it's still so amazing to watch pic.twitter.com/HJp1bK9UNJ

— Bobby Lewis (@revrrlewis) January 27, 2020