A J Green and Antonio Bryant

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

It was not a big deal at the time. That was a particularly bad year for FA WRs as the top two were 1) coming back from injury or 2) a team killing pariah no one else wanted to sign.

The Bengals signed both of them all because they didn’t want to pay TJ, a guy they drafted because they “build through the draft” except when they don’t retain their draft picks because they need money to rollover annually.

[JSR18]

(01-28-2020, 11:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, you are all missing the main point.  A hold out does not hurt a players contract because teams know he is healthy enought to play.

Green was not healthy enough to play.  You are all just pretending that is true because you think it is true.  

Green not showing that he was healthy enough to play cost him millions of dollars.  He would not be stupid enough to do that on purpose.

So, again, how much guaranteed money do you think Green will get as a WR at age 32 who has missed a year and a half with injury?

Its not that we're missing the point, it's that we don't agree with your point.

How do you know Green wasn't healthy enough to play?? You believe AJ? I don't. I had the same or very similar injury in the Army. I was healed in 8 wks. A cast for 6 wks and splint for two wks then back to regular duty. AJ Thought real hard about his health in a contract year and decided he wanted no part of the Bengals 2019 shit show.


Green not showing he was healthy enough to play didn't cost him a dime.  He's AJ Green. He's either going to get paid by MB or he'll get whatever he wants in guaranteed $$$ from one of the other 31 teams...

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-29-2020, 02:13 AM)JSR18 Wrote: Its not that we're missing the point, it's that we don't agree with your point.

How do you know Green wasn't healthy enough to play?? You believe AJ? I don't. I had the same or very similar injury in the Army. I was healed in 8 wks. A cast for 6 wks and splint for two wks then back to regular duty. AJ Thought real hard about his health in a contract year and decided he wanted no part of the Bengals 2019 shit show.


Green not showing he was healthy enough to play didn't cost him a dime.  He's AJ Green. He's either going to get paid by MB or he'll get whatever he wants in guaranteed $$$ from one of the other 31 teams...

So which ligament did you tear and which ligament did Green tear?

[JSR18]

(01-29-2020, 02:55 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So which ligament did you tear and which ligament did Green tear?

Did you notice the part about "very similar"?? 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-29-2020, 05:45 PM)JSR18 Wrote: Did you notice the part about "very similar"?? 

That’s the thing, if you tore your anterior talofibular ligament and Green tore his deltoid ligament they are similar in the fact they are both torn ligaments, but the prognosis can be much different. A grade I ankle sprain is similar to a grade III ankle sprain, but a grade I usually heals in 1-2 weeks while a grade III is usually treated with surgery and requires months to heal. Did I miss the part about your ankle injury requiring surgery? Or were you treated with immobilization only?

Kinda like a posterior sternoclavicular dislocation is similar to an anterior sternoclavicular dislocation except the former can be life threatening and the latter isn’t.

Details matter.

[JSR18]

(01-29-2020, 10:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That’s the thing, if you tore your anterior talofibular ligament and Green tore his deltoid ligament they are similar in the fact they are both torn ligaments, but the prognosis can be much different. A grade I ankle sprain  is similar to a grade III ankle sprain, but a grade I usually heals in 1-2 weeks while a grade III is usually treated with surgery and requires months to heal. Did I miss the part about your ankle injury requiring surgery?  Or were you treated with immobilization only?

Kinda like a posterior sternoclavicular dislocation is similar to an anterior sternoclavicular dislocation except the former can be life threatening and the latter isn’t.

Details matter.

Ok, you're the doctor.



But I still think he baby'd it... 


...and mine was my anterior talo-fibular ligament.

[Catmandude123]

(01-29-2020, 10:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That’s the thing, if you tore your anterior talofibular ligament and Green tore his deltoid ligament they are similar in the fact they are both torn ligaments, but the prognosis can be much different. A grade I ankle sprain  is similar to a grade III ankle sprain, but a grade I usually heals in 1-2 weeks while a grade III is usually treated with surgery and requires months to heal. Did I miss the part about your ankle injury requiring surgery?  Or were you treated with immobilization only?

Kinda like a posterior sternoclavicular dislocation is similar to an anterior sternoclavicular dislocation except the former can be life threatening and the latter isn’t.

Details matter.

Did you miss the part that said he would be back in six to eight weeks? Did the original MRI lie and it suddenly turned into a different injury? If it takes him a full season to recover from a sprained ankle it seems to me he was goldbricking. Don't you find it strange he went to see his doctor at the END of the season and not at other times to get an opinion as to the status of his injury? He wanted other teams to know he was ready to play next year. I am giving my opinions only and while I haven't seen any of AJ's charts neither have you so all you are giving is an opinion. YOU ARE NOT HIS DOCTOR!!!!

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-30-2020, 12:22 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Did you miss the part that said he would be back in six to eight weeks?

Yeah, they said the same about Eifert's ankle injury.  They said the same thing about Rich Braham's "bone bruise" which Braham revealed was really a tibial plateau fracture after the season.

When Green first injured his ankle, it was no big deal, just doing MRI as a precaution.  Then no big deal, just a torn ligament.  Then no big deal, just a little procedure.  No big deal, may miss the start of the season.  No big deal, may miss 4 games.  No big deal, but we don't know when he will return.

The point is, you should know better.  Point blank, the Bengals lie about injuries.  Why you believe their reports, I don't know.  Who told you 6-8 weeks?  Green's doctor? No.

Quote:Did the original MRI lie and it suddenly turned into a different injury?

You mean like Braham's bone bruise turning into a tibial plateau fracture?  It didn't turn into a tibial plateau fracture.  It was always a tibial plateau fracture from the start.  The only thing that changed was the information released to the public.

Quote:If it takes him a full season to recover from a sprained ankle it seems to me he was goldbricking.

I'm sure that is how it seems to you because you don't know the difference between a grade i and a grade III ankle sprain, the difference in prognosis between an anterior talofibular tear and a deltoid tear, the associated injuries with a deltoid tear, and the prognosis for each.

https://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/uncommon-injuries-the-deltoid-ligament/

I'll hit the highlights so you don't have to read the whole article.

Quote:Injuries to the deltoid ligament are an uncommon ligamentous sprain to the ankle. The mechanism of injury occurs due to forced eversion combined with external rotation. They are typically seen in footballers (all types), court sports athletes (netball, basketball, handball), combat sports such as Brazilian JuJitSu, as well as in off-road runners such as trail runners. The signs and symptoms are usually straightforward; however many of these type of injuries are also associated with syndesmosis injuries and ankle fractures. The management of deltoid ligament injury is similar to lateral ankle sprains, however, the rehabilitation period is often protracted.

Did you get that part about protected rehab?  That means it take a very long f'n time to heal.  One of the reasons is because of the associated injuries which occur frequently.  Associated injuries we don't know if Green does or doesn't have, just like we didn't know Braham had a fracture and not a bone bruise.  Only about 5% of ankle injuries are deltoid ligament tears so 95% of people think they are just like the ankle injury they had when they were in high school and don't understand why Green is taking so long to heal because they had a similar injury, but they aren't similar and thus the prognosis is different.  We can watch the video of Green's injury and it appears his foot and ankle evert and externally rotate when he lands which as you just read in black and white is the mechanism of injury for a deltoid ligament injury while the more common ATF ligament tear is caused by inversion and internal rotation.

Quote:Isolated deltoid sprains without fracture are rare

Based upon the video showing how he landed he likely suffered a deltoid ligament tear and more than likely he has other injuries which haven't been reported that would explain the protracted rehabilitation.  His recovery is consistent with the prognosis for this type of injury.

Quote:For the athlete with a more severe isolated deltoid sprain (particularly the deep fibres), early stress by returning to too soon may lead to the ligament healing in a stretched position, contributing to instability.

The last thing an athlete would want to do try to is progress through rehab too hard, too soon which could lead to chronic instability and need to have the surgery repeated and it could potentially be career threatening.

Quote:Return to light training should be delayed to about 6-8 weeks.

After 6-8 weeks they return to light training, not competitive competition.

Quote:The athlete can return to sport if they have met the following exit criteria:

Medial ankle swelling is controlled, and does not increase after loading sessions.

Swelling is exactly what Green complained about after his training sessions.

Quote:Running can be performed daily if the athlete does not react from one session to the next.

Swelling indicates a reaction.  If Green's ankle reacted to the training, his surgeon and therapists advice would be to back of the training until the swelling improves.

Quote:Deltoid ligament sprains are not a common injury to the ankle. If they do occur, even the mild strains of the superficial deltoid ligament will take longer to rehabilitate than mild injuries on the lateral aspect of the ankle. Higher grade injuries that involve the deep deltoid ligament will most likely result in a much longer convalescence period. More severe injuries are usually associated with more severe pathology such as malleolar fracture and/or syndesmosis injury.

Due to the natural tendency for the ankle and foot to pronate and evert during loaded movements such as running and landing, early return to sport in an unhealed ligament complex may lead to over-stretching of the deltoid ligament, which may then progress to pathological chronic instability of the medial ankle. Therefore, the clinician is advised to [b]move slowly in rehabilitation[/b] with the more significant injuries that involve the deep deltoid ligament.

I have observed an athlete most likely rehabbing from a significant ankle injury which required surgery to repair and based upon how his rehab has progressed it is consistent with my suspicion he suffered a deltoid ligament tear . . . at a minimum.

You see a goldbricking diva like Antonio Brown.

Quote:Don't you find it strange he went to see his doctor at the END of the season and not at other times to get an opinion as to the status of his injury?

Actually, I don't find that strange at all.  Matter of fact, that's basically the standard of care.  If your medical condition isn't getter better on its own you see a doctor.  If it doesn't get better after seeing a doctor, he refers you to a specialist.  If it doesn't get better after seeing a specialist, he refers you to a subspecialist.

If your ankle wasn't getting better as expected after surgery and PT; would you keep doing the same thing or would you see a subspecialist for another opinion?  Any normal person with half a brain would do the latter, not keep doing the former.

Quote:He wanted other teams to know he was ready to play next year.

Then he went on IR.  What a wonderful and completely asinine way of letting teams know he was ready to play next year; by letting all of them know he wasn't healthy enough to play the last game. F'n brilliant.

Quote:I am giving my opinions only and while I haven't seen any of AJ's charts neither have you so all you are giving is an opinion. YOU ARE NOT HIS DOCTOR!!!!

But, at least my opinion is based in medical knowledge as I just showed you in black and white.  You have "feelings." Like you feel Green and Antonio Brown are the same type of diva proving not all opinions are created equal.

[Catmandude123]

(02-03-2020, 06:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, they said the same about Eifert's ankle injury.  They said the same thing about Rich Braham's "bone bruise" which Braham revealed was really a tibial plateau fracture after the season.

When Green first injured his ankle, it was no big deal, just doing MRI as a precaution.  Then no big deal, just a torn ligament.  Then no big deal, just a little procedure.  No big deal, may miss the start of the season.  No big deal, may miss 4 games.  No big deal, but we don't know when he will return.

The point is, you should know better.  Point blank, the Bengals lie about injuries.  Why you believe their reports, I don't know.  Who told you 6-8 weeks?  Green's doctor? No.


You mean like Braham's bone bruise turning into a tibial plateau fracture?  It didn't turn into a tibial plateau fracture.  It was always a tibial plateau fracture from the start.  The only thing that changed was the information released to the public.


I'm sure that is how it seems to you because you don't know the difference between a grade i and a grade III ankle sprain, the difference in prognosis between an anterior talofibular tear and a deltoid tear, the associated injuries with a deltoid tear, and the prognosis for each.

https://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/uncommon-injuries-the-deltoid-ligament/

I'll hit the highlights so you don't have to read the whole article.


Did you get that part about protected rehab?  That means it take a very long f'n time to heal.  One of the reasons is because of the associated injuries which occur frequently.  Associated injuries we don't know if Green does or doesn't have, just like we didn't know Braham had a fracture and not a bone bruise.  Only about 5% of ankle injuries are deltoid ligament tears so 95% of people think they are just like the ankle injury they had when they were in high school and don't understand why Green is taking so long to heal because they had a similar injury, but they aren't similar and thus the prognosis is different.  We can watch the video of Green's injury and it appears his foot and ankle evert and externally rotate when he lands which as you just read in black and white is the mechanism of injury for a deltoid ligament injury while the more common ATF ligament tear is caused by inversion and internal rotation.


Based upon the video showing how he landed he likely suffered a deltoid ligament tear and more than likely he has other injuries which haven't been reported that would explain the protracted rehabilitation.  His recovery is consistent with the prognosis for this type of injury.


The last thing an athlete would want to do try to is progress through rehab too hard, too soon which could lead to chronic instability and need to have the surgery repeated and it could potentially be career threatening.


After 6-8 weeks they return to light training, not competitive competition.


Swelling is exactly what Green complained about after his training sessions.


Swelling indicates a reaction.  If Green's ankle reacted to the training, his surgeon and therapists advice would be to back of the training until the swelling improves.


I have observed an athlete most likely rehabbing from a significant ankle injury which required surgery to repair and based upon how his rehab has progressed it is consistent with my suspicion he suffered a deltoid ligament tear . . . at a minimum.

You see a goldbricking diva like Antonio Brown.


Actually, I don't find that strange at all.  Matter of fact, that's basically the standard of care.  If your medical condition isn't getter better on its own you see a doctor.  If it doesn't get better after seeing a doctor, he refers you to a specialist.  If it doesn't get better after seeing a specialist, he refers you to a subspecialist.

If your ankle wasn't getting better as expected after surgery and PT; would you keep doing the same thing or would you see a subspecialist for another opinion?  Any normal person with half a brain would do the latter, not keep doing the former.


Then he went on IR.  What a wonderful and completely asinine way of letting teams know he was ready to play next year; by letting all of them know he wasn't healthy enough to play the last game. F'n brilliant.


But, at least my opinion is based in medical knowledge as I just showed you in black and white.  You have "feelings." Like you feel Green and Antonio Brown are the same type of diva proving not all opinions are created equal.

Like I said you can look up crap all day and give an opinion but you know no more than anyone else about AJ . YOU ARE NOT HIS DOCTOR so quit acting like you are.

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2020, 07:48 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Like I said you can look up crap all day and give an opinion but you know no more than anyone else about AJ . YOU ARE NOT HIS DOCTOR so quit acting like you are.

So tell me again how you know that Green was fully healed and could have played WITHOUT BEING HIS DOCTOR?

Why is it okay for you to claim to have the same knowledge as his doctors while no one else can?

[Catmandude123]

(02-03-2020, 07:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So tell me again how you know that Green was fully healed and could have played WITHOUT BEING HIS DOCTOR?

Why is it okay for you to claim to have the same knowledge as his doctors while no one else can?

The statement I made was that the team said it was a 6-8 week return period then all of a sudden the injury turned into a year long thing. How do you do a MRI on a injury on a 15mil/year player and then suddenly a new injury appears? What happened did I PO your alter ego?

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2020, 08:29 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The statement I made was that the team said it was a 6-8 week return period then all of a sudden the injury turned into a year long thing. How do you do a MRI on a injury on a 15mil/year player and then suddenly a new injury appears? 

I'll give you a perfect example.

I had to have surgery to repair a ruptured bicep tendon.  After surgery a calcium deposit developed where the tendon was reattached to the bone.  It was just below my elbow between the ulna and the radius.  It made it impossible for me to fully supinate my left hand.  


Surgeries and/or injuries do not always heal properly.  Sometimes there are complications.  

Just ask Andrew Luck.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-03-2020, 08:29 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The statement I made was that the team said it was a 6-8 week return period then all of a sudden the injury turned into a year long thing. How do you do a MRI on a injury on a 15mil/year player and then suddenly a new injury appears? What happened did I PO your alter ego?

Rich Braham injured his knee during Week 2. The team reported it was a bone bruise and he would return by the middle of the season. When the prognosis turned out to be incorrect fans bashed Braham and the doctors. But, they didn’t bash the team for releasing false information and creating unrealistic expectations. Braham had a tibial plateau fracture and was never going to return by the middle of the season. What the team told fans was completely false.

Here’s some more “crap” others call medical education regarding your MRI statement from the source I already provided . . .

Quote: However, MRI has been shown to be less reliable in detecting ligamentous deficits compared to arthroscopic assessment(26). Furthermore, MRI has also been shown to be unhelpful for determining whether operative or conservative treatment of the common SER-type ankle fractures is necessary(13).

What that means is some injuries can be missed by MRI and are not detected until during surgery. Or the extent of the damage can’t be fully appreciated until actually visualized through the arthroscope. On the flipped side, the MRI can give false negatives, or injuries that actually aren’t there. MRIs aren’t 100% specific or sensitive.

[ezekiel23]

Time to move on from AJ.To much risk.

[Passepartout]

Please do not need another Antonio Brown type like diva attitude.

[*Synric*]

PFF Deal or No Deal: 2020 Free Agent Edition!

Quote:DEAL: WR A.J. GREEN (3 YRS – $16.67M AVG/YR)
$18m guaranteed, $50m total
After playing just 458 offensive snaps over the last two seasons, it's easy to forget that Green is a borderline top-five wide receiver in the NFL at full strength. He ranks fifth at the position in PFF WAR since 2011 and sixth in PFF grade among qualifiers. He's a full-fledged No. 1 wide receiver who has the skill set to win at every level of the field. The question becomes whether you believe Green can get back to full strength and stay there as a player on the wrong side of 30.

With a contract structured like this one, that's a chance I'm going to take to get an elite player at one of the game's most important positions. Per Over the Cap, there are already four wide receivers with contracts that average over $16.67 million per year, so it's not as if Green is re-setting the market. Sure, there are injury risks, and his age is a factor. At just $18 million guaranteed, though, some of those concerns are lightened. He's one of the best deep threats in the NFL, one of the best red-zone weapons in the NFL, and he wins with regularity in contested-catch situations. Green is worth the money.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-deal-or-no-deal-2020-free-agent-edition

[WeezyBengal]

(01-27-2020, 12:56 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I think a one year "prove it" deal would be fair.  Even a fairly high salary would be fine, but I wouldn't want to get stuck for three years and eat a large signing bonus.

There is no way in hell AJ is going to sign a one year prove it deal. That's why the Bengals may franchise tag him. 

[BengalChris]

(02-03-2020, 08:29 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The statement I made was that the team said it was a 6-8 week return period then all of a sudden the injury turned into a year long thing. How do you do a MRI on a injury on a 15mil/year player and then suddenly a new injury appears? What happened did I PO your alter ego?

This doesn't help your case, even though I believe Fred is wrong in comparing AJ to with Bryant. It's the Bengals medical staff after all. Marvin Jones had a similar injury in training and was suppose to be out a few weeks. A few weeks turned into more weeks, then more weeks, then it turned into him being placed on season ending IR later in that season.

 

[t3r3e3]

(02-04-2020, 12:03 AM)Passepartout Wrote: Please do not need another Antonio Brown type like diva attitude.

When has Green ever behaved like Antonio Brown. AJ is basically the anti-Antonio. Never in trouble, never talking shit about teammates, never accused of things by women. You’re reaching with this comparison.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-06-2020, 07:38 PM)BengalChris Wrote: This doesn't help your case, even though I believe Fred is wrong in comparing AJ to with Bryant. It's the Bengals medical staff after all. Marvin Jones had a similar injury in training and was suppose to be out a few weeks. A few weeks turned into more weeks, then more weeks, then it turned into him being placed on season ending IR later in that season.

 

I’m 95% sure Marvin Jones sustained two separate injuries that season. Too lazy to look it up to verify.

And the medical staff didn’t tell Braham his tibial plateau fracture was a bone bruise. That was the team lying to the media and the fans.