It's insanity! The war on Christianity......

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-14-2015, 12:43 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Well, his death had to occur in order for our sins to be forgiven...

It appears as if the Christian God values persecution if indeed this is the case.  

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-14-2015, 01:03 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: It appears as if the Christian God values persecution if indeed this is the case.  

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you... 


2 Timothy 3:12 Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


As I've said before, fundamentalist Christians have  to believe they're persecuted for being Christians. If they aren't, then Jesus was wrong.

And if Jesus was wrong, then... well... you know...

[Belsnickel]

(10-14-2015, 01:09 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you... 

2 Timothy 3:12 Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

As I've said before, fundamentalist Christians have  to believe they're persecuted for being Christians. If they aren't, then Jesus was wrong.

And if Jesus was wrong, then... well... you know...

Context is a wonderful thing when reading scripture, or anything for that matter.

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-14-2015, 01:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Context is a wonderful thing when reading scripture, or anything for that matter.

Those are only two verses. I've got plenty more, if you find that the contexts for those ones don't adequately demonstrate my point: that the Bible makes the assertion, again and again, that if you follow god, you're going to suffer persecution for it.

I'd be slightly surprised though since I've literally never heard anybody deny that the Bible makes that assertion.

[Belsnickel]

(10-14-2015, 01:28 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Those are only two verses. I've got plenty more, if you find that the contexts for those ones don't adequately demonstrate my point: that the Bible makes the assertion, again and again, that if you follow god, you're going to suffer persecution for it.

I'd be slightly surprised though since I've literally never heard anybody deny that the Bible makes that assertion.

I'm not challenging that assertion. That's pretty obvious in the scripture. I'm challenging this assertion:

(10-14-2015, 01:09 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: As I've said before, fundamentalist Christians have to believe they're persecuted for being Christians. If they aren't, then Jesus was wrong.

There is a difference between saying we will face persecution vs. we have to. Also, when I mention context I am referring to historical context. Because, you know, they were speaking of the times they were in, in which they did face tremendous persecution.

[Rotobeast]

(10-14-2015, 01:28 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Those are only two verses. I've got plenty more, if you find that the contexts for those ones don't adequately demonstrate my point: that the Bible makes the assertion, again and again, that if you follow god, you're going to suffer persecution for it.

I'd be slightly surprised though since I've literally never heard anybody deny that the Bible makes that assertion.

Perhaps you should consider the timeframe for the context ?

Yes, I know you could/should ask anyone quoting scripture to do the same.


*edit* Bel beat me to it.

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-14-2015, 01:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not challenging that assertion. That's pretty obvious in the scripture. I'm challenging this assertion:


There is a difference between saying we will face persecution vs. we have to. Also, when I mention context I am referring to historical context. Because, you know, they were speaking of the times they were in, in which they did face tremendous persecution.

Umm.. No. Not really. Not when we're talking about allegedly divinely inspired documents. If God (through human writers) is telling you something will happen to you, then it must happen to you; otherwise God was wrong. Thus the reason fundamentalist Christians look for "persecution" complaints anywhere they can find them. It is part of their need to confirm the reality of their beliefs to themselves.

Now, you mention historical context, and seem to be leaving the door open that the numerous verses foreseeing persecution for anybody who follows Christ were addressing only specific Christians at specific moments in time. Which is all good and well, and which is why I specifically said fundamentalist Christians  need "persecution" to be happening to them. I qualified it that way because I realize not all Christians in America are fundamentalists.

[Belsnickel]

(10-14-2015, 01:51 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Umm.. No. Not really. Not when we're talking about allegedly divinely inspired documents. If God (through human writers) is telling you something will happen to you, then it must happen to you; otherwise God was wrong. Thus the reason fundamentalist Christians look for "persecution" complaints anywhere they can find them. It is part of their need to confirm the reality of their beliefs to themselves.

Not necessarily. We discussed in another thread some time ago about the difference between inherent and total omniscience. Not to mention the writers being men, as well as the translators. They are all fallible. But...

(10-14-2015, 01:51 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Now, you mention historical context, and seem to be leaving the door open that the numerous verses foreseeing persecution for anybody who follows Christ were addressing only specific Christians at specific moments in time. Which is all good and well, and which is why I specifically said fundamentalist Christians  need "persecution" to be happening to them. I qualified it that way because I realize not all Christians in America are fundamentalists.

...of course if we are talking about fundamentalists then there is a whole other ball game.

Maybe their need for persecution is a self-fulfilling prophecy? They need to be persecuted, so some of them act bat shit crazy, to cause the persecution.

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-14-2015, 02:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not necessarily. We discussed in another thread some time ago about the difference between inherent and total omniscience. Not to mention the writers being men, as well as the translators. They are all fallible. But...


...of course if we are talking about fundamentalists then there is a whole other ball game.

Maybe their need for persecution is a self-fulfilling prophecy? They need to be persecuted, so some of them act bat shit crazy, to cause the persecution.

Well, I'm not gonna get into different "models" of omniscience because theology is basically one big hive of confirmation bias as far as I'm concerned (shocker, I know). But yeah, it's fundamentalists I was talking about.

I agree that there may be self-fulfilling prophecy at work; but that's not a kind of persecution. There may be an occasional case, but acting bat shit crazy and then hearing somebody tell you that you are bat shit crazy just doesn't fit the definition of the word persecution. So the only thing I'd change is to say they need to be persecuted, they act bat shit crazy, they predictably get called out on it, and then falsely label that "persecution".

[*PhilHos*]

(10-14-2015, 01:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: See, I'm new to this whole "celebration" thing in religion. The churches I grew up in, there was nothing that really ever felt like celebration. I've not hit any big liturgical holidays with this new church, though, so we shall see.

Well, I wouldn't use "celebration" in the typical sense. More like gratitude due to recognizing it was necessary in order for our salvation.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-14-2015, 05:58 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Well, I wouldn't use "celebration" in the typical sense. More like gratitude due to recognizing it was necessary in order for our salvation.

God needed a human sacrifice instead of a "I forgive you"?

[*PhilHos*]

(10-14-2015, 01:51 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Umm.. No. Not really. Not when we're talking about allegedly divinely inspired documents. If God (through human writers) is telling you something will happen to you, then it must happen to you; otherwise God was wrong.

Ummm, no, but don't let me stop you from being wrong.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-14-2015, 06:09 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: God needed a human sacrifice instead of a "I forgive you"?

Yes. The wages of sin is death, therefore someone has to pay the price of the sin.

[KingPoster]

(10-14-2015, 12:35 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Isn't "persecution" supposed to come with being a Christian?  Wasn't their savior crucified?  

Don't they actually celebrate his death?

I don't think so. I think they celebrate his birth and resurrection. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-14-2015, 06:13 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes. The wages of sin is death, therefore someone has to pay the price of the sin.

Who made that rule?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-13-2015, 01:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Probably so, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens and by the literal definition of the word is considered persecution.



Does it matter? Are you trying to imply that persecution (even as tiny as what most American Christians face) is justifiable depending on who is doing the persecution?

I just don't see bullying as persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution

Quote:Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The most common forms are religious persecution, ethnic persecution and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, isolation, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution. Even so, not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate.[1]

To me bullying doesn't seem to reach the level of systemic.  Although, thinking about it I can't clearly define the threshold level at which bullying becomes persecution.

[Belsnickel]

(10-14-2015, 06:48 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I just don't see bullying as persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution

To me bullying doesn't seem to reach the level of systemic.  Although, thinking about it I can't clearly define the threshold level at which bullying becomes persecution.

The quote from Wikipedia is systematic, not systemic. Persecution need not be systemic, but I would say that oftentimes what most of us would classify as actual persecution is systemic persecution.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-14-2015, 06:37 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Who made that rule?

I think you know the answer.

(10-14-2015, 06:48 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I just don't see bullying as persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution

To me bullying doesn't seem to reach the level of systemic.  Although, thinking about it I can't clearly define the threshold level at which bullying becomes persecution.

According to the DICTIONARY definition, bullying = persecution. But, like I've said multiple times, I wouldn't call it persecution either.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-14-2015, 06:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The quote from Wikipedia is systematic, not systemic. Persecution need not be systemic, but I would say that oftentimes what most of us would classify as actual persecution is systemic persecution.

When I think of persecution, I think of a group of people persecuting an individual.  The Church persecuting Giordano Bruno.  Or individuals persecuting a group.  Ferdinand and Isabella persecuting Jews and Muslims. 

Bullying just doesn't seem to rise to the level of persecution, but at some point I'm sure it does.  I'm not sure at what point that happens.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-14-2015, 06:58 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I think you know the answer.

And when you make the rules, you make the rules.  You decide what needs to happen for salvation and a simple, "I forgive you" seems sufficient for an omnipotent/omniscient deity instead of human sacrifice.