Coronavirus

[*Nately120*]

(04-16-2020, 09:33 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It wasn’t a scoff. Well it was, but she wasn’t supposed to hear it.

Hey now, people scoffed at Noah for building a giant boat in the middle of the desert, too!

[*michaelsean*]

(04-16-2020, 04:43 PM)samhain Wrote: We're getting to see the troglodytes show their asses in Kentucky, Michigan, and Ohio now. A few scumbag business owners and one state rep here in Kentucky gathered outside the governor's daily briefing to shout and chant in protest of the stay-at-home advisories.

IMO this is entirely politically motivated in every states in which it occurs. Beshear was gaining popularity here, and the far right in the state (no shortage of them) couldn't let that go without a major disruption. It's not a coincidence that the woman organizing the rallies, a local furniture store owner, was appointed to several positions in Ex-governor (and national embarrassment/bible thumper, child rapist pardoner) Matt Bevin's cabinet. She's out for revenge and the herd here is all to happy to oblige.

I understand that people want to re-open the economy, but IMO this is pretty irresponsible. Basically, these people are telling fellow citizens that they don't care if their actions spread a disease that could kill you. I am personally rooting for the virus to tear through those protesters in a week or two. Yeah, it's a shitty thing to say, but they've publicly told the rest of us that the potential cost of our lives is negotiable when it comes to opening their businesses. They are scum and deserve to reap the reward for their stupidity.

When do you stop believing experts who are consistently wrong, and not by a little? We were supposed to peak at 10,000 a day. Now it’s 1400.

Beshear and a few other governors are going to be facing 1st amendment lawsuits. I sure hope when this is over we take a look at whatever mechanism it is that gives these governors unlimited authority. I mean they just make up the crime and the punishment as they go. Completely arbitrary.

[samhain]

(04-16-2020, 09:30 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Anyone else here the governor of New Jersey say understanding  the Bill of Rights is above his pay grade?

I don't know the context of his statement, but unless he's an attorney, it might very well be.  I mean, does anyone think DJT could give anyone a passable interpretation of any constitutional law argument without consulting an aide?  Just because a person is elected doesn't mean they know jack about the document.  The last time we elected an actual constitutional lawyer president, all of the alleged lovers of the all things constitutional hated his guts.  

Given the scenario we're in, I'm not sure if the people challenging the governors have real cases or not.  What the majority of social media Constitutional law professors all seem to forget is that although they are granted rights in the document, most if not all of them have limits in extreme and outlying situations.  Examples:

You have the right to free speech.  You do not have the right to terroristic threatening, fighting words (in terms of what the law deems them to be), libel or slander of a private citizen, or the use of any speech that can be a clear and present danger to the public (yelling "fire": in a crowded theater).

You have the right to bear arms.  You do not have the right to own automatic weapons.  You can't buy a nuclear bomb.  You also don't have the right to shoot whoever you want with them.  Even shooting a home invader has the potential to land you in jail if a court sees fit.

Free assembly is the most frequent one I hear being argued when it comes to corona shutdown angst.  First off, free assembly is guaranteed only to peaceable gatherings.  It also, like free speech can be taken away when the assembly in question poses a clear and present danger.  Is corona a clear and present danger?  Is their assembly threatening the safety of people who come in contact with them that weren't even involved?  Would a judge say so?  I think you could argue it either way.  

If these people end up infected in a couple of weeks, they're going to look pretty moronic.  If they spread it and someone dies, and the case can be traced to a gathering that took place against the state's advice, I'd like to see them prosecuted for public endangerment or manslaughter.  It will never happen, but it should.  They were told the risks for months and still took it upon themselves to do something that has the potential to kill.  IMO that's no different than someone getting behind the wheel after drinking 10 beers and running over a stranger.  

[samhain]

(04-16-2020, 09:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: When do you stop believing experts who are consistently wrong, and not by a little?  We were supposed to peak at 10,000 a day. Now it’s 1400.

Beshear and a few other governors are going to be facing 1st amendment lawsuits. I sure hope when this is over we take a look at whatever mechanism it is that gives these governors unlimited authority. I mean they just make up the crime and the punishment as they go. Completely arbitrary.

 I'm sure Beshear understood the risks of potential lawsuits when this thing began.  That had to be weighed against what could have happened if restrictions were not enacted.  

Would you rather make the people on the far right, who already hate your guts mad and endure some politically motivated lawsuits or have your state get overrun with a virus that medical experts were predicting was about to tear through the population and overwhelm the healthcare system?    It was a no-brainer for him, and he did the right thing.  Now the vultures and sideline-sitters will come in and make him pay with political capital, because they are nihilistic douchebags.  This was never not going to happen.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-16-2020, 09:54 PM)samhain Wrote: I don't know the context of his statement, but unless he's an attorney, it might very well be.  I mean, does anyone think DJT could give anyone a passable interpretation of any constitutional law argument without consulting an aide?  Just because a person is elected doesn't mean they know jack about the document.  The last time we elected an actual constitutional lawyer president, all of the alleged lovers of the all things constitutional hated his guts.  

Given the scenario we're in, I'm not sure if the people challenging the governors have real cases or not.  What the majority of social media Constitutional law professors all seem to forget is that although they are granted rights in the document, most if not all of them have limits in extreme and outlying situations.  Examples:

You have the right to free speech.  You do not have the right to terroristic threatening, fighting words (in terms of what the law deems them to be), libel or slander of a private citizen, or the use of any speech that can be a clear and present danger to the public (yelling "fire": in a crowded theater).

You have the right to bear arms.  You do not have the right to own automatic weapons.  You can't buy a nuclear bomb.  You also don't have the right to shoot whoever you want with them.  Even shooting a home invader has the potential to land you in jail if a court sees fit.

Free assembly is the most frequent one I hear being argued when it comes to corona shutdown angst.  First off, free assembly is guaranteed only to peaceable gatherings.  It also, like free speech can be taken away when the assembly in question poses a clear and present danger.  Is corona a clear and present danger?  Is their assembly threatening the safety of people who come in contact with them that weren't even involved?  Would a judge say so?  I think you could argue it either way.  

If these people end up infected in a couple of weeks, they're going to look pretty moronic.  If they spread it and someone dies, and the case can be traced to a gathering that took place against the state's advice, I'd like to see them prosecuted for public endangerment or manslaughter.  It will never happen, but it should.  They were told the risks for months and still took it upon themselves to do something that has the potential to kill.  IMO that's no different than someone getting behind the wheel after drinking 10 beers and running over a stranger.  

Here I found it:

Quote: "The Bill of Rights, as you well know, protects Americans' rights - enshrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully," Carlson said. "By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?"

"That's above my pay grade, Tucker," Murphy replied. "I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights when we did this. ... We looked at all the data and the science and it says people have to stay away from each other. That is the best thing we can do to break the back of the curve of this virus, that leads to lower hospitalization and ultimately fatalities."

[*michaelsean*]

(04-16-2020, 10:09 PM)samhain Wrote:  I'm sure Beshear understood the risks of potential lawsuits when this thing began.  That had to be weighed against what could have happened if restrictions were not enacted.  

Would you rather make the people on the far right, who already hate your guts mad and endure some politically motivated lawsuits or have your state get overrun with a virus that medical experts were predicting was about to tear through the population and overwhelm the healthcare system?    It was a no-brainer for him, and he did the right thing.  Now the vultures and sideline-sitters will come in and make him pay with political capital, because they are nihilistic douchebags.  This was never not going to happen.

It’s sad that it’s supposedly only the far right isn’t it? Although I don’t think it is. Where the hell did the people of the sixties go? Where is the ACLU? And let’s not forget DeWine is a Republican.

[samhain]

(04-16-2020, 10:13 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It’s sad that it’s supposedly only the far right isn’t it?  Although I don’t think it is. Where the hell did the people of the sixties go?  Where is the ACLU?  And let’s not forget DeWine is a Republican.

It's funny how the president was telling people to stay home and none of them seem too upset with him.  Now that's what I find perplexing.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-16-2020, 09:30 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Anyone else here the governor of New Jersey say understanding  the Bill of Rights is above his pay grade?

Republicans love The Bill Of Rights and The Constitution except when it gets in the way of their agenda. Then it is conveniently forgotten, like in an impeachment trial with no witnesses. So NOW you want everything to go by procedure. Good thing you and Rush are looking out for the New Jersians and the economy.

[samhain]

(04-17-2020, 01:38 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Republicans love The Bill Of Rights and The Constitution except when it gets in the way of their agenda. Then it is conveniently forgotten, like in an impeachment trial with no witnesses. So NOW you want everything to go by procedure. Good thing you and Rush are looking out for the New Jersians and the economy.

It's especially odd when the president left the handling of the crisis  largely to governors from jump.  The governors in turn used the powers granted to them in states of emergency as written in their individual states.  If you bother to read through the powers that governors have in states of emergency (I did), I think you'd find it pretty hard to argue that anything overly illegal took place.  Hell, Kentucky grants the ability to seize property (other than guns and ammo) and production facilities if deemed necessary.

Similarly, as I already pointed out, rights have limitations.  Not all speech falls into the category of protected speech.  Assemblies that present a danger to public health or threaten lives aren't either.  You're seeing the corona deniers come out of the woodwork to minimize the disease now that the curve seems to be flattening.  My money is on it flattening because of the measures taken meant to do exactly that.  Is this the case?  We'll find out soon enough when things loosen up and we start getting out again.  

I for one sincerely hope that these people are correct and that it was all a big freakout over nothing.  It would be great to just get back to work and get things crawling back to normal.  I wouldn't bet any significant amount of money on that being the case.  I'm definitely not taking the word of a bunch of right wing radical extremists who have a hunch that everyhthing's going to be hunky dory if we all try to pretend that epidemiologists a just a bunch of meanies conspiring with Gates and Soros to require mandatory abortions and turn us into gay lizard people because they hate Trump.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-16-2020, 11:25 PM)samhain Wrote: It's funny how the president was telling people to stay home and none of them seem too upset with him.  Now that's what I find perplexing.

Because it’s guidelines? He didn’t actually shut down businesses and send twenty million people to the unemployment lines.

This place is impossible. Nobody can get past Trump to discuss something.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-17-2020, 01:38 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Republicans love The Bill Of Rights and The Constitution except when it gets in the way of their agenda. Then it is conveniently forgotten, like in an impeachment trial with no witnesses. So NOW you want everything to go by procedure. Good thing you and Rush are looking out for the New Jersians and the economy.

That’s your example? There’s plenty out there, and you managed to pick one that isn’t.

[*michaelsean*]

The people who want to open things up again are all crazy right wing extremists? Nobody here has an opinion on these statements?

[GMDino]

(04-17-2020, 08:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The people who want to open things up again are all crazy right wing extremists?  Nobody here has an opinion on these statements?

People who are marching next to each other in the streets, carrying nazi flags and confederate flags, demanding their state be open NOW are crazy-right wing extremists.  Yes.

Even DJT said the protestors seem to be people who like and agree with him.

JON KARL: Shouldn't the anti-stay-at-home protesters in Michigan listen to local authorities?

TRUMP: "I think they're listening. I think they listen to me. They seem to be protesters that like me." pic.twitter.com/842jov2kY8

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) April 16, 2020

 


Look at what Trump "proposed" yesterday.  I'ts all BS.  It's basically what we already were doing: When things get better we can start to look at opening some things and then other things.  But since Trump has to look "tough" he declares it is his idea and he is allowing being to be sensible.


But that was yesterday.


Today or tomorrow he will say something different.  Because all he cares about is the economy looks good to help his reelection.  He has rarely said anything about the human cost of this disease.  It's about him, how people see him and what he can get from it: votes.


So yes, people who are demanding things reopened right now are right wing extremists.  Or at least somewhere along that end of the spectrum.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-16-2020, 09:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: When do you stop believing experts who are consistently wrong, and not by a little? We were supposed to peak at 10,000 a day. Now it’s 1400.

Beshear and a few other governors are going to be facing 1st amendment lawsuits. I sure hope when this is over we take a look at whatever mechanism it is that gives these governors unlimited authority. I mean they just make up the crime and the punishment as they go. Completely arbitrary.

I’m not sure where you’re getting those numbers, but I can tell you no one knows the true prevalence because there is a shortage of tests. As of today, the Georgia Department of Health has processed a total of 4,358 tests.

If you only run 200-300 tests per day you’ll never peak close to 1,400 or 10,000.

With the availability of commercial testing the total number of tests has increased while the percent of positive tests has remained the same. Which means we haven’t peaked, yet. However, we don’t know how many people are sick because there aren’t enough tests to test everyone who needs to be tested.

Also, last week the number of people tested decreased by 30% and not because there are less people who need testing.

[GMDino]

(04-17-2020, 08:39 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I’m not sure where you’re getting those numbers, but I can tell you no one knows the true prevalence because there is a shortage of tests.  As of today, the Georgia Department of Health has processed a total of 4,358 tests.

If you only run 200-300 tests per day you’ll never peak close to 1,400 or 10,000.

With the availability of commercial testing the total number of tests has increased while the percent of positive tests has remained the same. Which means we haven’t peaked, yet. However, we don’t know how many people are sick because there aren’t enough tests to test everyone who needs to be tested.

Also, last week the number of people tested decreased by 30% and not because there are less people who need testing.

And Trump and Trump-lite (Mike "at the direction and under the bold, fast leadership of the President" Pence) keep throwing numbers out that seem really big but are small when they are taken per capita.

Also...

They tested the entire 4,800 member crew of the Roosevelt. 60% of the positives were asymptomatic.

Reopening the economy without universal testing and tracking, and a vaccine, will be a disaster. https://t.co/daBvIpGLnQ

— David Waldman-1, of Yorktown LLC (@KagroX) April 16, 2020

 

And I WANT the US open. I mean my family is one of the fortunate ones where everyone is still working but I see the pain out there. No one WANTS the economy to tank. However SOME only want the economy open for political reasons...not because they care about you or me. Hell if they cared about us we would have universal health care and guaranteed sick leave that would have eased the pain of the shutdown in the first place.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-17-2020, 08:39 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I’m not sure where you’re getting those numbers, but I can tell you no one knows the true prevalence because there is a shortage of tests. As of today, the Georgia Department of Health has processed a total of 4,358 tests.

If you only run 200-300 tests per day you’ll never peak close to 1,400 or 10,000.

With the availability of commercial testing the total number of tests has increased while the percent of positive tests has remained the same. Which means we haven’t peaked, yet. However, we don’t know how many people are sick because there aren’t enough tests to test everyone who needs to be tested.

Also, last week the number of people tested decreased by 30% and not because there are less people who need testing.

I’m going off of what the Ohio health director is saying. These are her numbers.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-17-2020, 08:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The people who want to open things up again are all crazy right wing extremists? Nobody here has an opinion on these statements?

I think everyone wants to get back to normal. It’s just a question of how and when.

[GMDino]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-rightwing-groups-behind-wave-of-protests-against-covid-19-restrictions/ar-BB12LTyi?ocid=sf2

Quote:The rightwing groups behind wave of protests against Covid-19 restrictions



A wave of planned anti-lockdown demonstrations that have broken out around the country to protest the efforts of state governments to combat the coronavirus pandemic with business closures and stay-at-home orders have included far-right groups as well as more mainstream Republicans.
Provided by The Guardian Photograph: Seth Herald/Reuters
While protesters in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and other states claim to speak for ordinary citizens, many are also supported by street-fighting rightwing groups like the Proud Boys, conservative armed militia groups, religious fundamentalists, anti-vaccination groups and other elements of the radical right.



On Wednesday in Lansing, Michigan, a protest put together by two Republican-connected not-for-profits was explicitly devised to cause gridlock in the city, and for a time blocked the entrance to a local hospital.

It was organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition, which Michigan state corporate filings show has also operated under the name of Michigan Trump Republicans. It was also heavily promoted by the Michigan Freedom Fund, a group linked to Trump cabinet member Betsy DeVos.

Related: Protests against US stay-at-home orders gain support from rightwing figures 

But the protest also attracted far right protest groups who have been present at pro-Trump and gun rights rallies in Michigan throughout the Trump presidency.

Placards identified the Michigan Proud Boys as participants in the vehicle convoy. Near the state house, local radio interviewed a man who identified himself as “Phil Odinson”.

In fact the man is Phil Robinson, the prime mover in a group called the Michigan Liberty Militia, whose Facebook page features pictures of firearms, warnings of civil war, celebrations of Norse paganism, and memes ultimately sourced from white nationalist groups like Patriot Front.

The pattern of rightwing not-for-profits promoting public protests while still more radical groups use lockdown resistance as a platform for extreme rightwing causes looks set to continue in events advertised in other states over coming days.

In Idaho on Friday, protesters plan to gather at the capitol building in Boise to protest anti-virus restrictions put in place by the Republican governor, Brad Little.

The protest has been heavily promoted by the Idaho Freedom Foundation (IFF), which counts among its donors “dark money” funds linked to the Koch brothers such as Donors Capital Fund, and Castle Rock, a foundation seeded with part of the fortune of Adolph Coors, the rightwing beer magnate.

IFF have added their slogan for the event, “Disobey Idaho”, to stickers which they plan to distribute among the crowd.

The event is also being promoted on a website dedicated to attacking Little for his response to Covid-19. That website was set up by the Idaho businessman, pastor, and one time Republican state senate candidate, Diego Rodriguez.

Rodriguez launched the website at an Easter service held in defiance of the governor’s orders on Easter Sunday, which was also addressed by Ammon Bundy, the leader of the militia occupation of the Malheur National wildlife refuge in 2016 that become a rallying point for the anti-government right in the US.

Bundy has been holding similar gatherings for weeks in Emmett, Idaho, where he now lives. On Sunday, he repeated his opposition to the Idaho orders, writing on Facebook: “We all have a duty to defend what is right and to make sure, that what God has given, man does not take away. Especially that great gift of agency, YES freedom!”

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-17-2020, 09:37 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I’m going off of what the Ohio health director is saying. These are her numbers.

Can you give me a link, please? There’s tons of coronavirus info out there that makes finding specific info difficult.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-17-2020, 09:46 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Can you give me a link, please? There’s tons of coronavirus info out there that makes finding specific info difficult.

This is just from watching the briefings. One briefing she said they have changed the peak from 10,000 to 1400 a day. Her name is Dr Acton if that helps a search.