2020 Election

[*michaelsean*]

(08-07-2020, 01:45 PM)hollodero Wrote: One might add that Biden is not a pathological narcissist, not a pathological liar, cares about things beyond himself, has compassion, is distinctively less idiotic, believes in democracy and has no authoritarian tendencies, is not inherently racist, not quite that embarrassingly uneducated, knows about the value of diplomacy and good foreign relations, won't kneecap an ally in his fight against a common foe to produce fraoudulent charges against an opponent, is less spiteful, less ignorant, less vindictive, less corrupt, less indecent, tweets less BS, is less of a global embarrassment...
I feel those are all fair and fairly neutral points for Biden. They deserve mention.

Could be a narcissist. I think most people who run for president probably are to some degree. His reactions when challenged are quite telling.
Has demonstrated several times through his “gaffes” that he does have racist opinions or thought processes.
Lots of leaders pretend to have compassion. It gets them elected. Ted Kennedy was a giant POS but he sure voted the right way. So you could argue that as long as you get the desired results then it’s really not important if they actually have compassion and that would be a legit argument.

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 01:55 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm only comfortable giving Biden credit when he's being compared to Trump, but I'm biased.  The 2020 election is, to me, a situation where Trump is going to say "I'm doing the best job ever and I'm the best president" and I want to see the American voting populace tell him that he is far from those things by voting him out of office.  It's all about voters showing that they have a grasp of reality, not that they are smart enough to agree with me (because voters aren't joining me in voting for Jorgensen and it's also possible that I'm a complete idiot).  This is the only actual job Trump has ever had in his life and it shows.

The fact that Biden could be brain-dead or dead-dead before a second term comes into play and therefore require a political re-boot in 2024 is all the more reason to tacitly "support" the guy.

The latter is a completely fair point. It might depend which black woman is his running mate and how one feels about her too (btw. that it has to be a black woman annoys me). As for Biden, most of my points were made in comparison, I did not plan to hide that, nor do I think Biden is an inherently good candidate. I still think my list is fair. It is Biden or Trump, after all.

At times I feel those that vote third party are somewhat eased by knowing their pick will not make it anyway and hence they don't have to live with anything. No shot against Jorgensen, don't know her much. But of course it's also true for you, when you vote for her you keep your vote out of the actual race, and I would have assumed that had to go with some kind of refusal of my list. 
Also, you want Americans to show Trump the door, so you root for a certain outcome, but you yourself don't want to contribute to it.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 02:36 PM)hollodero Wrote: The latter is a completely fair point. It might depend which black woman is his running mate and how one feels about her too (btw. that it has to be a black woman annoys me). As for Biden, most of my points were made in comparison, I did not plan to hide that, nor do I think Biden is an inherently good candidate. I still think my list is fair. It is Biden or Trump, after all.

At times I feel those that vote third party are somewhat eased by knowing their pick will not make it anyway and hence they don't have to live with anything. No shot against Jorgensen, don't know her much. But of course it's also true for you, when you vote for her you keep your vote out of the actual race, and I would have assumed that had to go with some kind of refusal of my list. 
Also, you want Americans to show Trump the door, so you root for a certain outcome, but you yourself don't want to contribute to it.

Yeah, the Biden going with a black woman VP seems to be damn near as much pandering as Trump slagging off on Muslims or acting like he gives a rat's ass about Jesus, but that's politics for ya.  

I vote libertarian because in a way it is a comfort to know I can't be proven "wrong" but my single vote is dust in the wind and I like the idea that I can complain about Trump being a gropey idiot without having to admit that I voted for a different gropey idiot or engage in a discussion where I have to defend and analyze levels of sexual deviancy between candidates I support vs those I abhor. I voted for Gore, Kerry, and Obama before going Johnson, Johnson due to my disillusionment with Obama's handling of the war and the Patriot Act, for the most part. I enjoy discussing the reasons and pros and cons of each vote I've made and I'll admit the democrat ones had a lot of "I didn't like the other guy" impetus behind them.

Plus if you vote 3rd party your popular vote sort of counts in regards to the party actually getting federal funding/recognition, though I also know that is:

A. unlikely to happen due to a lack of votes
B. if it does happen the D&R machine will just change the rules so it doesn't happen


I'm also a bit of a lazy single-issue voter in the sense that libertarians don't promise to limit our freedoms in order to get elected, so that seems good enough for me.  It's handy during any political argument to be able to shrug and say "Hey, I voted for the candidate that stood for more freedom and he/she got his/her ass handed to her, so what the hell do I know about what the land of the free wants?"

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 02:11 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Could be a narcissist.  I think most people who run for president probably are to some degree. His reactions when challenged are quite telling.

Yeah don't make a philosophical argument out of it, that is not quite fair. "You're somewhat narcissistic, I am somewhat narcissistic, isn't anybody? At least anyone running for pres..."... yeah I am talking about something quite different from an overblown ego when accusing Trump of narcissism. I talk about gigantomania, merciless self-centeredness and constantly claiming and obviously instantly believing one is the smartest and the greatest in everything.
Call Biden what you will, but at least he won't let his cabinet march along to relentlessly kiss his behind. With Trump, it's just what Trump does. Thre is no genuine comparison between those two person's narcissism.

(08-07-2020, 02:11 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Has demonstrated several times through his “gaffes” that he does have racist opinions or thought processes.

I don't think he has, but honestly, I wouldn't know all of that probably. I don't know exactly what instances you're referring to, but I heard outcry over him saying the Latino community is more diverse, and that imho was not a racist statement at all. Just a clumsy one. It seems obvious what he wanted to say with that and why. Politically speaking, it is obviously true that latinos are far further spread along the political spectrum.
Maybe I see that wrong or there are other examples, maybe he is not pure, I am not a fan in the first place. But most blacks are fine with him over Trump in that regard and so am I. He never told someone to go back where they came from, never instigated boos against a person's Mexican name, never... you get my point. Spare me the list of things Biden would never do.

(08-07-2020, 02:11 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Lots of leaders pretend to have compassion. It gets them elected. Ted Kennedy was a giant POS but he sure voted the right way. So you could argue that as long as you get the desired results then it’s really not important if they actually have compassion and that would be a legit argument.

Yeah, that is true, it doesn't matter if they are compassionate or just act as if they were compassionate and convince me through word and deed. No issue with that, the world still would be a better place and I'd have a better leader who conveys better values than a person that clearly lacks any compassion.

[GMDino]

(08-07-2020, 01:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Great. He apologized for racist comments. That doesn’t change the fact that that’s what he thought. Doesn’t change the fact that the first thing he went to in his hypothetical with a black reporter was junkie. You will become what you despise in Trump voters with this guy.

Doubtful.  I don't drink the Flavorade.

Plus he won't be someone who will have to have 100% constant backing from his defenders like Trump is with his.  

Go ahead an accuse him of racism if you want.  I simply put what he said in context you are free to make that jump.

[Dill]

(08-07-2020, 12:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote:
No but voting third party can wake some people up. If a whole bunch of Republicans go say libertarian then that severely hampers the Republican’s chances to win, and maybe we will see better. Maybe then people won’t see third party votes as a wage. Keep hitting the R or D and you’re going to keep getting the same thing.

Woke me up. 

I voted for Nader in VA in 2000. Gore lost VA by a slim margin--and the election.  I feel personally responsible for the Iraq War now.

Never again.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 02:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: Doubtful.  I don't drink the Flavorade.

Plus he won't be someone who will have to have 100% constant backing from his defenders like Trump is with his.  

Go ahead an accuse him of racism if you want.  I simply put what he said in context you are free to make that jump.

+rep for knowing it was Flavorade and not Kool Aid.

[GMDino]

(08-07-2020, 03:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: +rep for knowing it was Flavorade and not Kool Aid.

That's why I giggled to myself when someone posted that I didn't know enough about cults.  If they only knew...

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 03:12 PM)GMDino Wrote:

That's why I giggled to myself when someone posted that I didn't know enough about cults.  If they only knew...

That and people tend to neglect to mention that those fools drank the "kool aid" while being held at gunpoint and some of them were injected with it or flat-out shot.  But hey, it's easier to sleep at night just assuming they all gleefully died just like they wanted, right?  Thank god we'd never be dumb enough to fall for a charismatic maniac's honeyed rhetoric, eh?

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 02:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, the Biden going with a black woman VP seems to be damn near as much pandering as Trump slagging off on Muslims or acting like he gives a rat's ass about Jesus, but that's politics for ya.

I wouldn't go that far. I guess it is somewhat well intentioned. Or it is just pandering, but then it at least isn't hateful and doesn't hurt anyone.

(08-07-2020, 02:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I vote libertarian because in a way it is a comfort to know I can't be proven "wrong" but my single vote is dust in the wind and I like the idea that I can complain about Trump being a gropey idiot without having to admit that I voted for a different gropey idiot or engage in a discussion where I have to defend and analyze levels of sexual deviancy between candidates I support vs those I abhor.

In other words, I got that one right :)
I mean, no one forces you to discuss levels of sexual deviancy. Just pick one of the thousands of other comparisons that make your choice clearer. You don't have to defend that guy on everything afterwards.

(08-07-2020, 02:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm also a bit of a lazy single-issue voter in the sense that libertarians don't promise to limit our freedoms in order to get elected, so that seems good enough for me.  It's handy during any political argument to be able to shrug and say "Hey, I voted for the candidate that stood for more freedom and he/she got his/her ass handed to her, so what the hell do I know about what the land of the free wants?"

I feel people would have the right to ask in return why you are staying out of the dual decision that actually matters. Don't get me wrong, I read your explanations and though I sure am not a libertarian, I do not call them wrong or unreasonable in any way. I might call them willfully missing the actual choice and hence letting the others choose for you.

--- But hey, actually I get it. Voting tactical and mainly against someone is unsatisfying. I just follow a train of thought I consider legitimate.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 03:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: I wouldn't go that far. I guess it is somewhat well intentioned. Or it is just pandering, but then it at least isn't hateful and doesn't hurt anyone.



In other words, I got that one right :)
I mean, no one forces you to discuss levels of sexual deviancy. Just pick one of the thousands of other comparisons that make your choice clearer. You don't have to defend that guy on everything afterwards.



I feel people would have the right to ask in return why you are staying out of the dual decision that actually matters. Don't get me wrong, I read your explanations and though I sure am not a libertarian, I do not call them wrong or unreasonable in any way. I might call them willfully missing the actual choice and hence letting the others choose for you.

--- But hey, actually I get it. Voting tactical and merely against someone is unsatisfying. I just follow a train of thought I consider legitimate.

There is also the fact that I agree the most by far with the LN platform and candidates.  I'm legitimately voting for the candidate I want to see win just as much as Trump and Biden supporters want to see Trump/Biden win.  I'm voting for the person I want to be president, and if that person happens to be a democrat or republican in 2024 I'll vote for that person and sleep with a clear conscience, I assure you.

[GMDino]

(08-07-2020, 03:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That and people tend to neglect to mention that those fools drank the "kool aid" while being held at gunpoint and some of them were injected with it or flat-out shot.  But hey, it's easier to sleep at night just assuming they all gleefully died just like they wanted, right?  Thank god we'd never be dumb enough to fall for a charismatic maniac's honeyed rhetoric, eh?

There's a sucker born every minute....

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 02:00 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Actually, going OT for a second the system makes sense if there are MORE than 2 parties.

If there are 2 parties, it should be popular vote, period.

The EC made sense when you had the Dems, Reps, Dem-Reps, Federalists, Whigs, etc., all running against each other.

It has "devolved," per se, into 2 parties, due to the funding (moreso in the modern day) required and just how certain people came to power, historically.

Here we have a similar system, in that whomever wins the most seats, wins the leadership of the country.

But we've had 4+ parties since the 1800s, so it makes sense :)

The determination of leadership imho is not similar to the US. If I'm not mistaken, you do not vote for a president like the US does in the first place. I tried to read up a bit, and to me it seems the party with the most seats is asked to form a government, but that prime minister person always has to maintain confidence in the house... meaning, there will be a partner in a coalition, right, so there's a secure majority in the house?
And if so, regarding those four parties, are there traditional pairings or is it more like an all limits off coupling?
I have to ask for just found out is that you obviously also have one seat per electoral district, and yet more than two parties. As does GB, which I should have thought of as well.

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 03:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: There is also the fact that I agree the most by far with the LN platform and candidates.  I'm legitimately voting for the candidate I want to see win just as much as Trump and Biden supporters want to see Trump/Biden win.  I'm voting for the person I want to be president, and if that person happens to be a democrat or republican in 2024 I'll vote for that person and sleep with a clear conscience, I assure you.

Is there even such a thing as a Biden supporter though. I feel people are right, the main argument going for him is that he's better than Trump. Which is good enough for me, but makes me no supporter.
This, imho, is a vote of negatives, meaning not a vote for someone, but a vote against someone specifically. And in that scenario, the logic imho might turn a little. Libertarians and green party voters and Democrats might just align in their assessment that four more Trump years would be desastrous and together go with the one alternative there is.

For sure, if that were Rubio vs Biden, or Kasich vs. Biden, or almost whoever vs. Biden, I can see why to go with your own preference, regardless of actual chances. But in this case, I have a harder time to understand, especially since you yourself stated that you wish for a certain outcome (also "negative" in the sense that you maybe don't specifically want Biden to win, but you do want Trump to be shown the door and a Biden win is the only way that happens). If you want that, you might as well vote accordingly.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 03:58 PM)hollodero Wrote: Is there even such a thing as a Biden supporter though. I feel people are right, the main argument going for him is that he's better than Trump. Which is good enough for me, but makes me no supporter.
This, imho, is a vote of negatives, meaning not a vote for someone, but a vote against someone specifically. And in that scenario, the logic imho might turn a little. Libertarians and green party voters and Democrats might just align in their assessment that four more Trump years would be desastrous and together go with the one alternative there is.

For sure, if that were Rubio vs Biden, or Kasich vs. Biden, or almost whoever vs. Biden, I can see why to go with your own preference, regardless of actual chances. But in this case, I have a harder time to understand, especially since you yourself stated that you wish for a certain outcome (also "negative" in the sense that you maybe don't specifically want Biden to win, but you do want Trump to be shown the door and a Biden win is the only way that happens). If you want that, you might as well vote accordingly.

Trump is the president because he got 304 electoral votes, not because I voted for Gary Johnson. 

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 04:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump is the president because he got 304 electoral votes, not because I voted for Gary Johnson. 

Well, the overall futility of a single vote is a different topic. Sure, a single vote doesn't change anything, yet overall in a democracy a citizen is asked to not let the factual insignificance of his single vote determine his behaviour on the voting booth. Hence he is also asked to overcome that paradoxon.
I mean, you voted for Johnson because it still meant something. I'm not content with accepting the argument that it really didn't.

Of course I didn't blame you for the election outcome. Can someone even imagine if the election was actually decided by a single vote in Ohio? Literally millions of heroes' stories, all narrating how one person and his whole life story, leading to his one decision on the voting booth, changed the fate of the country forever...

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 04:48 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, the overall futility of a single vote is a different topic. Sure, a single vote doesn't change anything, yet overall in a democracy a citizen is asked to not let the factual insignificance of his single vote determine his behaviour on the voting booth. Hence he is also asked to overcome that paradoxon.
I mean, you voted for Johnson because it still meant something. I'm not content with accepting the argument that it really didn't.

Of course I didn't blame you for the election outcome. Can someone even imagine if the election was actually decided by a single vote in Ohio? Literally millions of heroes' stories, all narrating how one person and his whole life story, leading to his one decision on the voting booth, changed the fate of the country forever...

I hear ya, it's just interesting how voting 3rd party is both a waste and yet critical to "the other guy winning" at the same time.  Even I can't tell how important I am.  Also im in western PA so any non Trump vote is extra useless. 

[treee]

(08-07-2020, 04:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, it's just interesting how voting 3rd party is both a waste and yet critical to "the other guy winning" at the same time.  Even I can't tell how important I am.  Also im in western PA so any non Trump vote is extra useless. 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/pennsylvania/

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 04:54 PM)treee Wrote: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/pennsylvania/

Oh man biden has this locked up. Now I extra don't have to vote for his creepy ass!

Also isn't it a county by county thing?  I've been throwing my vote away so long I forget how real votes are tallied. 

[treee]

(08-07-2020, 04:57 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Oh man biden has this locked up. Now I extra don't have to vote for his creepy ass!

Also isn't it a county by county thing?  I've been throwing my vote away so long I forget how real votes are tallied. 

Iirc for the presidential elections, it is winner take all state-by-state. So even winning by 0.5 percent in a state will give them all of the electors from that state.