Tobin Likes Williams At LT?!

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-10-2021, 01:30 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not even getting into the LT vs RT debate, but I think you can draft Sewell and play him at RT even if he doesn't play RT forever. Taking him and playing him at RT for a year while we see if Jonah can even stay healthy enough to play LT gives us the quickest line to improvement. After a year you move forward from there with potentially kicking Jonah to guard or swapping sides if Sewell is who people say he is and Jonah can stay healthy. If Jonah doesn't stay healthy you slide Sewell over and go back to the drawing board for the right side.

I am not in the Sewell at 5 camp anyways, but I think there is still a pretty reasonable way of approaching this without moving Jonah year 1.

That's fair I guess.  I would just prefer you set their roles ASAP so they can gain as much as experience as possible for the future.  (I'm of the position 2021 is still a rebuild and 2022 at least has the potential for contending)

Simply put:

---Penni Sewell playing LT for all of 2021 makes him a better LT for 2022. (vs. playing RT and switching in 2022)

---Jonah Williams playing RT or LG for 2021 makes him a better RT or LG for 2022. (vs. playing LT and switching in 2022)

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-10-2021, 12:04 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: Much more talented??  Sewell ISN’T that yet.  Potentially he maybe a more talented player down the road, even the second coming of Anthony Munoz, but he is nowhere close to that as a 20 year old.  After yesterday’s strong showing by Slater, there is now a strong sentiment that he might not be OT1 in his draft class.

Much healthier player??.  In two years of college play he went had a season ending injury in one of those seasons.  In five years combined, JW has two season ending injuries.  How the heck does that qualify as “much healthier player”?  It doesn’t.  

Sewell played guard for most of his HS career.  LT isn’t “his” position.

Sewell is 100% more talented than Jonah. Talent isn't results, it IS potential. There's all this talk about other guys being the better OT because of recency bias and because these guys are paid to write/talk/debate football, not just be like "yup, he's the best" and then sit there in silence. That's why you see bad takes like Chris Simms for NBCS saying Zach Wilson is the #1 QB over Trevor Lawrence. They want to be noticed.

When you win an Outland Trophy, it becomes your position if you want it. You've made it your B.

[Au165]

(03-10-2021, 01:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: That's fair I guess.  I would just prefer you set their roles ASAP so they can gain as much as experience as possible for the future.  (I'm of the position 2021 is still a rebuild and 2022 at least has the potential for contending)

Simply put:

---Penni Sewell playing LT for all of 2021 makes him a better LT for 2022. (vs. playing RT and switching in 2022)

---Jonah Williams playing RT or LG for 2021 makes him a better RT or LG for 2022. (vs. playing LT and switching in 2022)

As generational as a prospect is, I know Jonah can play LT in the NFL at a decent clip we don't really know what Sewell is until he gets here. I think the pay scheme of RT vs LT will get closer together as the old guard phases out so I wouldn't read too much into that at this juncture and we got time to decide. Also, just looking in the AFC North, Myles Garrett and TJ Watt both rush off the right side more often than not. Garrett moved a little more this past year than he had previously, but in general RT's in the AFC North are going to see the premier rushers in the NFL often.

I think running Sewell at RT for a year against some of these top guys is a really good litmus test. Whitworth didn't start out at LT so I am not too worried about any long term development stunting if we do eventually want him out at RT.

[*Synric*]

(03-10-2021, 01:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: As generational as a prospect is, I know Jonah can play LT in the NFL at a decent clip we don't really know what Sewell is until he gets here. I think the pay scheme of RT vs LT will get closer together as the old guard phases out so I wouldn't read too much into that at this juncture and we got time to decide. Also, just looking in the AFC North, Myles Garrett and TJ Watt both rush off the right side more often than not. Garrett moved a little more this past year than he had previously, but in general RT's in the AFC North are going to see the premier rushers in the NFL often.

I think running Sewell at RT for a year against some of these top guys is a really good litmus test. Whitworth didn't start out at LT so I am not too worried about any long term development stunting if we do eventually want him out at RT.

And that's just pass protection.

Penei Sewell is a 330lb Offensive Tackle that is specifically known not only for his solid pass pro but being a weapon as a lead blocker in the run offense. The Right side on average sees a high percentage of play side runs.

[XenoMorph]

(03-10-2021, 01:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sewell is 100% more talented than Jonah. Talent isn't results, it IS potential. There's all this talk about other guys being the better OT because of recency bias and because these guys are paid to write/talk/debate football, not just be like "yup, he's the best" and then sit there in silence. That's why you see bad takes like Chris Simms for NBCS saying Zach Wilson is the #1 QB over Trevor Lawrence. They want to be noticed.

When you win an Outland Trophy, it becomes your position if you want it. You've made it your B.

would be more excited about Sewell if he had played last year and did as well or better than his junior year...   Also a guy that hasnt played in over a year.  gets less exciting.

[CoachGeorge]

(03-10-2021, 01:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sewell is 100% more talented than Jonah. Talent isn't results, it IS potential. There's all this talk about other guys being the better OT because of recency bias and because these guys are paid to write/talk/debate football, not just be like "yup, he's the best" and then sit there in silence. That's why you see bad takes like Chris Simms for NBCS saying Zach Wilson is the #1 QB over Trevor Lawrence. They want to be noticed.

When you win an Outland Trophy, it becomes your position if you want it. You've made it your B.

100% more talented?? Or 10% or 20%. Twice as good?? You really are drinking the Kool-aid.

Too many to count of star college LT’s have come into the NFL at another position only to move over (of course, some never do) eventually. It’s not a slight.

Chris Simms isn’t about getting noticed or click baiting . He is opinionated as heck but he stands his ground even when he is wrong (Daniel Jones for one). But he is far more accurate about QB’s than just about anybody (Mahomes , Watson, Herbert). If he says Wilson is QB1 you would be foolish to discount that - even if you disagree.

The Outland Trophy?? Surely you jest (I know, don’t call me Shirley). That’s a popularity contest and has little semblance to the NFL. Remember Joshua Garnett, 2016 winner? Neither does anybody else. He was a draft bust. Or how about our own Andre Smith. LT for the Tide. He made his stay in Cincinnati at RT. How can this be? He made LT his B.

[BengalChris]

(03-09-2021, 04:18 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: On ESPN.com, it has us taking Sewell, but putting him at right tackle and starting Jonah Williams at left tackle because it says that Tobin says that they believe in Williams at LT?



First off, if Williams could get the job done at LT, we wouldn't need to be looking this hard at the draft and free agents to protect our future in Burrow.  

Second, why put an unproven guy there with an injury-ridden first two seasons over a guy like Sewell that has so much potential?

I feel like this would set us back for a year (possibly more) and just wouldn't be a good sign that the franchise is moving in the right direction.

Thoughts?

Williams didn't do all that great in the running game. To put him on the right side would be a mistake in my opinion. LG, as others have mentioned could be an option if he can play there.

Williams is the best of our horrible OL players. Doesn't mean that he's a good NFL player though. He's got two years left on his contract so the team will try to get as much out of him as they can.

 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-10-2021, 03:21 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: 100% more talented??  Or 10% or 20%.  Twice as good?? You really are drinking the Kool-aid.

Too many to count of star college LT’s have come into the NFL at another position only to move over (of course, some never do) eventually.  It’s not a slight.

Chris Simms isn’t about getting noticed or click baiting .  He is opinionated as heck but he stands his ground even when he is wrong (Daniel Jones for one).  But he is far more accurate about QB’s than just about anybody (Mahomes , Watson, Herbert). If he says Wilson is QB1 you would be foolish to discount that - even if you disagree.

The Outland Trophy??  Surely you jest (I know, don’t call me Shirley).  That’s a popularity contest and has little semblance to the NFL.  Remember Joshua Garnett, 2016 winner?  Neither does anybody else.  He was a draft bust.  Or how about our own Andre Smith.  LT for the Tide.  He made his stay in Cincinnati at RT.  How can this be?  He made LT his B.

100% more talented as in it's 100% certain that he's more talented. Wasn't aware you were going to Fred my post or I would have been more careful to be hyper-specific to prevent your hyperbolic nonsense.

I also remember Joe Thomas, Ndamukong Suh, Aaron Donald, Brandon Scherff, and Quinnen Williams. All guys who won it as well.

Andre Smith simply didn't have the motivation to be great (he ran a 5.28, only repped 19 times), his weight occasionally would balloon to 350+, and also his primary ability was in run blocking rather than pass blocking, hence RT. Dude got paid and was okay with that (warning flag already there when he got suspended in college for being with an agent), nothing anywhere to suggest Sewell is like that.

[BFritz21]

(03-10-2021, 03:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: would be more excited about Sewell if he had played last year and did as well or better than his junior year...   Also a guy that hasnt played in over a year.  gets less exciting.

True but you gotta figure that the guy wasn't just sitting on his ass for an entire year and had to be working out and most likely doing football drills.

I understand that it's not game experience, but he might have been doing some game simulations where he was blocking people.

Maybe not but, at the very least, he had to be working out.

[*ochocincos*]

Looks like Zac Taylor has confirmed that Jonah will stay at LT.
So if Sewell is drafted, I'd assume he goes to RT.
Or if an OT is signed in FA, I'd assume it'd be for RT.

Bengals coach Zac Taylor confirms that Jonah Williams will stay at LT

— Ben Baby (@Ben_Baby) March 10, 2021

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-10-2021, 04:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Andre Smith simply didn't have the motivation to be great (he ran a 5.28, only repped 19 times), his weight occasionally would balloon to 350+,

I'd also like to add that the man had tits.  TITS.  I feel like if a football player has visible tits then it has to temper expectations somewhat.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-10-2021, 04:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote:

Bengals coach Zac Taylor confirms that Jonah Williams will stay at LT

— Ben Baby (@Ben_Baby) March 10, 2021

I read this as:  Jamarr Chase, come on down!!!

[*ochocincos*]

(03-10-2021, 04:39 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I read this as:  Jamarr Chase, come on down!!!

Except Chase will be off the board because he's going to be taken by NYJ or MIA 

[Frank Booth]

(03-10-2021, 04:36 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'd also like to add that the man had tits.  TITS.  

Tits, Basil. Tits.
   

[Gdale_Bengal]

I liek Jonah at LT too

[jj22]

I'd argue Andre's college play was better than Sewell's. He was a beast at Bama. Tit's and bad combine aside.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-10-2021, 01:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here is a list of the top 10 highest paid (average per year) Left and Right Tackles:

Left Tackle

David Bakhtiari ----------- 23 million
Laremy Tunsil ------------- 22 million
Ronnie Stanley ----------- 19.75 million
Garett Bolles -------------- 17 million
Taylor Lewan -------------- 16 million
Nate Solder --------------- 15.5 million
Taylor Decker ------------- 14.9 million
DJ Humphries ------------- 14.75
Dion Dawkins ------------- 14.575 million
Jake Matthews ----------- 14.5 million

Average ------------------- 17.6 million

Right Tackle

Lane Johnson -------------- 18 million
Jack Conklin ---------------- 14 million
Taylor Moton --------------- 13.754 million
Juwaun James ------------- 12.75 million
Mitchell Schwartz ---------- 11.255 million
Bryan - Bulaga ------------- 10 million
La'el Collins ----------------- 10 million
George Fant ---------------- 9.2 million
H. Vaitai -------------------- 9 million
Rob Havernstein ------------ 8.125 million

Average --------------------- 11.6 million

You can dismiss the blind side all you like, and you can bring up the pressure brougt on both sides, but you can't argue that the league doesn't value the LT position over the RT position. There's a reason the 22nd best LT (well below average) makes more than the 10th best RT (above average).

You don't draft Penni Sewell at #5 to play RT. I'm sorry, you just don't.

Now, if you're high on Jonah then that's great. Although he was average last year that's a good start to a career. He's not a really problem at the position if he can stay healthy. But if you want to keep him at LT then it only makes sense to pass on Sewell and go elsewhere with the pick. Hell, if you're dead set on drafting a RT in round 1 then trade out of the spot and pick up some picks for trading down.

You make good points. However, I think the Bengals are in a tough position because I’m not 100% certain Williams has established himself as the long term solution at LT. Also, draft evaluations are more difficult this year without a combine, and players sitting out the season, etc. The Bengals will be dealing with more of the unknown than usual. Thus I’m not 100% certain Sewell will be a definitive upgrade over Williams.

If I knew Williams was definitely the Bengals long term LT, I’d draft the best DE, CB, or WR @ #5 and a RT in the second round. If I definitely knew Sewell was a better LT than Williams; I’d draft Sewell at #5, move Williams to RT, and draft an OG in the 2nd round. Problem is I don’t definitely know any of that. So I’d just concentrate on putting together the best Oline possible and try my best to prevent Burrow from getting injured again.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-10-2021, 12:04 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: Much more talented??  Sewell ISN’T that yet.  Potentially he maybe a more talented player down the road, even the second coming of Anthony Munoz, but he is nowhere close to that as a 20 year old.  After yesterday’s strong showing by Slater, there is now a strong sentiment that he might not be OT1 in his draft class.

Much healthier player??.  In two years of college play he went had a season ending injury in one of those seasons.  In five years combined, JW has two season ending injuries.  How the heck does that qualify as “much healthier player”?  It doesn’t.  

Sewell played guard for most of his HS career.  LT isn’t “his” position.

LOL.  A workout doesn't change anything for an OT.  

Yes, LT is his position.  That's what he played in college and that's what he is best suited for with his physical skills.

[Essex Johnson]

Well Minn just released Riley Reif, Zimmer has high words for him, a new option at right tackle
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/vikings-release-offensive-tackle-riley-reiff-clear-up-11-75-million-in-salary-cap-space/amp/

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-10-2021, 11:44 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The fact is Hart isn't good, AT ALL, at pass pro. You hear people saying stuff like "he's improving every year" like he's going into his 3rd season on his rookie contract. He's entering his 7th season !

We can do better than Bobby Hart. Burrow deserves better than Bobby "Lookout" Hart.

Whenever one discusses Bobby Hart being at least solid at RT, it invites a ton of criticism, but here are the facts:

He was substantially better than either of the guards that played on the line at the start of last season (like, a good 20 points on PFF) and even rated higher than Hopkins, yet for whatever reason, he is the subject of serious hatred on here.  He would STILL be getting more grief than Jordan if not for the injury to Burrow.  

That doesn't mean that I am in love with the guy or want him as the long-term solution at RT.  He is STILL just 26 years old.  Whitworth had a lot of struggles early on at tackle and didn't become the starter at LT until he was 27.  His coaching staff?  Awful.  The talent next to him at RG?  Awful.

I am just saying that if they are unable to sign a significant upgrade to him in FA, then he might be the best choice to start the season until a 2nd or 3rd rounder is ready.  

Is it really that crazy to have faith in Hart over some rookies that sat out all of last year?