04-15-2021, 11:41 AM
(04-15-2021, 11:05 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The LEOs get the sole blame for the whole scenario because they were the ones who escalated it. As far as him not following their commands, the first thing we see in the video is the cop yelling at him to put his hands out of the car, gun drawn. We don't see what the man was doing because our view is just the cop's arm. I don't know if the first cop approached the car at first and the man did something that made the cop retreat to his car, pull his firearm and begin screaming, but I...doubt that happened. It seems to me that the police pulled him over (after he drove to a well lit area, it seems, as I've seen suggested when you're being pulled over at night), got out of their cars and immediately drew their weapon and began yelling.
It may the first thing you see, but the first thing you hear is the initial officer ordering him to show his hands around ten times. He's not reissuing the command because the Lt. is complying. So, before you "see" anything you have two repeated acts of non-compliance, failing to pull over (which we have addressed) and repeatedly failing to follow instructions to show his hands. If the initial officer wasn't justified in thinking the stop was high risk initially the repeated non-compliance subsequent would rather justify his thinking, at least in the moment.
Quote:And once that began, obviously the man was scared for his life, as he said once they actually approached the car, at which point the cop openly threatened him. "You should be [afraid to get out of your car]." That's about as blatant a threat as there can possibly exist. He may as well have said "I have the ability and will to murder you."
As stated, this was wrong, but it comes after repeated non-compliance with lawful orders. Let's not pretend that this was the first thing that happened, because it wasn't. Not even close.
Quote:If I were in that position, I'd be scared. So they then demand that he get out of the car. He has his hands out of the window. He already is scared and he already thinks, justifiably, that these cops are unhinged and ready to kill him due to their apparent approach (yelling, guns drawn before even interacting with him). If I were in his position I would NOT open that door. I am not moving my hands at all. They can see my hands and that I do not have a gun, I am not moving those hands until the guns come down. That is almost certainly what the man was thinking as well.
I'd like to think you wouldn't be in that position to begin with because you'd have complied with initial instructions. You're also ignoring his refusal to leave the car because, as he stated, he "doesn't have to". This is false.
Quote:Now, you can say that I would also be "non-compliant" but I see it as survival instincts. If a person is threatening to murder you if you move in any way that they don't approve of (which is what holding a gun on someone is implying) and are already at the top of their voice to the point where they come off as unhinged and crazy, I am not giving them a SINGLE REASON to shoot me. I am not reaching for the door, I am not reaching for my seat belt, I am not reaching for my driver's license. Nothing. I am not moving until they calm the **** down and stop threatening my life.
Again, you ignore the undeniable fact that this "threat" came well after repeated non-compliance.
Quote:This is a natural reaction and the fact that you're painting it as some sort of hostile action by the man does not ring true to me in any way. The person who is in danger of losing their life if they upset these two cops is not the person who needs to de-escalate when they weren't the ones who escalated. The cops came in at 100 and remained at 100 throughout the stop and then try and blame the man for not doing everything they bark at him wildly?
Again, you ignore the undeniable fact that he was repeatedly non-compliant well before the "threat" was made. He tried to argue and debate with the officers over what he would and would not do. I've acknowledged wrong doing by one of the officers. None of you on the other side of this argument have acknowledged any wrongdoing by the Lt., or how he greatly contributed to this scenario. If you think the police were initially wrong to initiate a high risk stop, fine. But the Lt's actions subsequent would have gone a hell of a long way towards justifying their initial impression of the situation.
Quote:I'm not buying that defense of the police at all.
Given the relentless anti law enforcement propaganda you hear on most news channels I'm not shocked.
Quote:I am not even getting into the race part, which I think is relevant in how they responded to him (not consciously, per se, but I think there is a higher level of fear of black people in this country for socio-economic reasons and that will obviously bleed into a cop's profession as well), I am just looking at the approach, the escalation, the responses by the man and, when I put myself in his shoes, I just don't see anything he did as unreasonable given the circumstances he was put in by these two officers.
Not following initial instruction is unreasonable. Let's go with your position in full, that the Lt. was in fear for his life from the very beginning, well before a "threat" was made. If you're worried about being shot by police, why would you ignore around ten commands to put your hands out the window of your car? You yourself stated you would make your hands visible and then not move them at all, for any reason. While I understand the logic of that position if you are legitimately in fear for your life your whole position falls apart for the Lt. when he initially refuses to even show his hands. What would you, as an LEO, think about someone who refuses to show their hands, what are they doing with them? What are they preparing to do with the hands they refuse to show you despite being ordered to do so numerous times? Your argument about being in fear falls apart from the very beginning because refusing to show your hands is not the action of a person who is afraid of being shot.
