04-15-2021, 12:30 PM
(04-15-2021, 12:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: You are saying he justified their position with his actions, but that sure seems like an inherently subjective matter to make such a defenitive statement.
I'm saying his actions could certainly have justified their initial impression. Are you stating otherwise?
Quote:If you refuse to believe anyone on the topic but yourself that is your prerogative, however, you can save the armchair QB comments and such. I have trained officers from all over the country in the past at ILEETA and IACP in pursuit techniques as well as the development of pursuit policies. We talk about what they should and shouldn't do all the time, no officer is above their department's policies no matter how right they think they are in their actions. When people think they are beyond reproach that is when people die, and that goes for officers, suspects, and civilians. While I am not an expert in this specific issue, I have been around enough trainers who do work in this specific area to know that if you are scared of your shadow and need to draw your gun for everything you are in the wrong line of business.
I don't believe the armchair QB comment was directed at you, or anyone specifically. You're also putting a lot of extras on my position that I have never argued.
Quote:If you reject IA here simply because you have decided that discipline is "highly publicized" you have essentially decided that you reject anyone who has all the info in favor of your own opinion. IA action was taken a month after the incident and 4 months before anyone in the general public knew anything about this situation. IA, the only people who know the facts that you keep demanding people should know before judging, ruled that they violated the department's use of force guidelines. That's it, there is no more discussion about it, your belief on the subject is wrong. If the officers had an issue with the IA findings they would have properly appealed through the union as is standard practice.
Are you saying they didn't appeal? You do know that process is not open to the public, right? I am also not saying IA is automatically wrong. What I am saying is that the current political climate has certainly skewed internal investigations against the officers. I can state this as I have seen it first hand. Many of my colleagues in other departments report the same thing. The chief of a department is a political position. Many of their decisions will be made in that vein. Again, I'm not privy to all information on this case, like everyone else here. I can state that the chief came out to the scene and decided that night that the officers were in the wrong. How many minutes did he review facts before coming to that conclusion? You don't think that influenced any subsequent investigation? Seems like the outcome was a fait accompli at that point.
Quote:As much as you like to play the cop victim card all the time, your severe bias here is obvious and unproductive to any sort of real discussion.
Oooh, this is quite the declarative statement. Not exactly one conducive to any "real discussion" to be sure.
Quote:Earlier you said crime was skyrocketing, this is a false narrative not backed up by any actual statistics, but often parrotted by the uber pro law enforcement folks. I asked you to provide the stats that you are using to make such a baseless claim and you simply skipped responding to that post.
Dear god, this is a fact.
https://www.vox.com/2020/8/3/21334149/murders-crime-shootings-protests-riots-trump-biden
“Homicide rates increased by 42% during the summer and 34% in the fall over the summer and fall of 2019.” Other data, from crime analyst Jeff Asher, found murder is up 36 percent throughout the year so far, compared to the same period in 2019, in a sample of 51 US cities. A preliminary FBI report also found murders up 15 percent nationwide in the first half of 2020.
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/06/953254623/massive-1-year-rise-in-homicide-rates-collided-with-the-pandemic-in-2020
At the end of 2020, Chicago police reported more than 750 murders, a jump of more than 50% compared with 2019. By mid-December, Los Angeles saw a 30% increase over the previous year with 322 homicides. There were 437 homicides in New York City by Dec. 20, nearly 40% more than the previous year.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/03/us/us-crime-rate-rise-2020/index.html
Sixty-three of the 66 largest police jurisdictions saw increases in at least one category of violent crimes in 2020, which include homicide, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault, according to a report produced by the Major Cities Chiefs Association. Baltimore City, Baltimore County and Raleigh, North Carolina, did not report increases in any of the violent crime categories.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/11/were-facing-massive-spike-violent-crime-democrats-cant-take-it-lightly/
Crime statistics paint an alarming picture. Murders skyrocketed in many major U.S. cities in 2020, increasing by nearly 37 percent over 2019’s total in a collection of 57 large jurisdictions. The rise was much larger in some places, such as Seattle (74 percent) and Chicago (56 percent). New York, long the national symbol for how crime rates plummeted in the 1990s, saw a nearly 45 percent hike in murders and a 97 percent increase in shootings.
Now, I'm sure you'll blame Covid and the lockdown, because that's easier for you to explain away. It is certainly a factor, but it doesn't explain it away entirely and it's not going to go away after Covid. I suppose we'll see, but for you to claim this is a "false narrative" is patently absurd. Certainly not conducive to a "real discussion".
