04-15-2021, 07:18 PM
(04-15-2021, 12:44 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Like I said, we didn't see what he was doing. Maybe the cop said "show me your hands" so he put them up (like "I surrender") inside his car. Maybe he was just confused and scared because they were already barking orders at him before even approaching him. Maybe he put one hand out. Maybe he tried to talk to them (like a normal person would) thinking it was a misunderstanding. There are hundreds of reasons why someone wouldn't immediately just stick their hands out of their car after being pulled over that aren't aggressive or hostile actions.
It'd amazing that you can ascribe so many reasons for him to not comply, but can't seem to fathom even one reason for the police to believe this was a high risk traffic stop. You keep glossing over this point, he had to be instructed to show his hands around ten times before he finally complied. Give him the benefit of the doubt for the first five, which is excessive, that still leaves five more before compliance.
Quote:I've been in a car that has been pulled over a total of 3 times in my life. All three times it was night time. All three times, the cop approached the driver side window. All three times the cop was calm, polite, asked for what you'd expect a cop to ask for, we would have some mild conversation, then he'd ticket/give us a warning and leave. I've never had a gun pulled on me, especially not from the very outset of the interaction and I've never had a police officer yell at me. I don't know what I'd do in that scenario but it likely would not be a perfect interaction from my part. You can see even after he has his hands out of the car, the man is begging the cops to just calm down and talk to him. But the police continue to escalate more and more and more and more to the point where they're literally just assaulting him. "He didn't open his door while doing nothing else hostile or aggressive, so we maced him" is not a thing that any one should even think about defending.
I've been in two instances in which the vehicle I was in was topped and the police had us at gun point. In both scenarios everyone complied as instructed in a timely manner and they both ended completely peacefully with zero issue.
Quote:I am not ignoring his non-compliance, I am contextualizing it. Like I said, if I was in this situation I would think these cops are insane and out for blood.
This statement is borderline insane and indicative of just how much anti cop propaganda has permeated our society.
Quote:They are not behaving like human beings and they definitely weren't treating him like a human being. They were treating him like a criminal piece of garbage, so it's not surprising that he wouldn't do everything they said.
There is zero logic to this. If he really thought the police wanted to kill him, why would he not follow their commands and make them even more suspicious of him?
Quote:We could say "he should have just done everything the police said" and, you are correct, the stop would have gone much more smoothly than it did here. But that hypothetical completely cuts human emotion out of the interaction and that's not something I'm willing to do when we're literally talking about a life or death situation for this man.
Ahh, human emotion for the guy pulled over, but not for the police who could very possibly have feared they were being set up. I've mentioned before, and everyone ignores, an insane amount of felony arrests occur during routine traffic stops. In fact, a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous things an LEO can do.
Quote:You can't expect someone to behave rationally when you are threatening their life.
That's odd, because my friends and I managed to comply with officer's instructions under the exact same set of circumstances.
Quote:I know you said he was "non-compliant" before the threat, but you're referring to the verbal threat. They had already threatened his life before they said a single word, as far as we can tell, by pulling their guns on him before even approaching the car. As soon as a cop pulls his gun, that's the threat. It can be nothing other than a threat. "I am prepared to kill you if I don't like what you do, so think very carefully about your every action during this incredibly high stress moment because every movement may be your last if I'm a twitchy person." is the message that is conveyed by a drawn weapon. That alone is enough for some people to completely shut down and not think or act properly.
Except this guy didn't "shut down" he continued to argue with the officers and tell them why he refused to comply.
Quote:This is exactly why I think open carry should be illegal in all states. The sight of a gun is a tangible, real and active threat to every person in the vicinity. It should be a last resort to pull a gun, not the opening move. So I'm not ignoring his non-compliance, I am understanding why he was non-compliant in the face of a mortal threat.
Got it, so now everyone has license to act a damned fool when held at gunpoint by law enforcement. That kind of excuse making won't have any far reaching consequences at all.
Quote:In one of the times that I was pulled over, the police asked for my driver's license. I gave it to them and they walked back to the car. I realized that they didn't ask for, and I didn't provide, my proof of insurance. For a brief moment, I was about to stick my arm out of the window with the POI in hand and say "hey, do you need this?" but I stopped myself because I knew that sudden motions could be misinterpreted by anyone and when that anyone has a gun, they could shoot you. I literally imagined myself sticking my arm out the window and my hand being shot off. That thought went through my mind. So I didn't move. So yes, I think him not sticking his hands out of the window, even when it was commanded, does not disprove the defense that he was in fear of his life. He has probably been trained through years of experience and stories about police that they treat sudden movements, even ones they command, as a threat and they MAY act on it. Maybe he was scared he'd put his hands out too fast and they'd "misinterpret" his actions and "think" they see a gun in his hand and open fire. No matter how slow he does it, he can't control their perception of his actions. Especially since they are already at 100, possibly unhinged and dangerous.
Yes, it is always best to be slow and deliberate. It is also best to follow all instructions in a timely manner without argument.
This all ties back into the power dynamic between cops and the people they pull over. The person who is pulled over has no power. The cop has all of the power. While his statements of not wanting to come out of the car may have been technically illegal (The whole "what do you have to do when a cop approaches you" is a much debated topic and I think the written laws and the applied rules are often not the same), they are understandable given this gigantic disparity in power between the two parties.
Quote:When there is such a large power disparity, it is the responsibility of the ones with the power to control the situation. (We could have a broader conversation about power dynamics and how they affect interactions between different types of people and what the expectations of the powerful and powerless parties are, but that could begin to get a bit non-sequitur). These police CLEARLY did not, from the very outset. So you may interpret this as me not understanding what you're saying, but I do understand that he "did not comply" with the police. I just disagree that he should be expected to to the degree that you expect. If he were hostile and aggressive and attacked them, sure, use force. But he showed no signs of being a threat, even in his non-compliance, because he clearly just wanted to talk them like humans and he expected to be treated like a human as well. In fact, I think him mentioning that he was a veteran was his attempt to snap them out of their rage. Maybe if he humanized and related himself to them, they'd realize how irrational and dangerous they were acting and calm down.
Look, I get what you're saying. However, if the police already believe the stop warrants high risk tactics then failing to comply only reinforces that position. In both instances in which my friends and I were stopped the police were looking for another similar vehicle. I know this because on one of them they flat out told me as they were wrapping up and the second because after they stopped us, we left our friend's house about ten minutes later and passed the exact same type of car pulled over by multiple units with gang members six gang members all on the curb cuffed up. So, you have no idea why the police are responding the way that they are. In 9,999 cases out of 10,000 if you've done nothing wrong and comply you'll leave the situation completely unscathed in any way.
Quote:Unfortunately for him, the police did not have that same desire.
Again, you assume a lot. If the police feel the need to execute a high risk stop it's not your job to debate with them about why it's not necessary. Just do what you're instructed to do. You may have a point though, all the anti-cop propaganda may have affected this Lt. to the point where he's not able to act rationally when stopped by the police.
