Teen girl in Columbus killed by police

[Dill]

(04-30-2021, 05:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As usual Fred is both oversimplifying the concept and misstating its actual implications in such a scenario.  Say a residence in which ten people live (not at all unusual btw) is searched and five kilos of heroin is discovered.  Everyone who resides there, hell everyone with common access, to the residence is in constructive possession of the heroin.  There is no way in hell the DA's office will charge everyone in that home with possession of said heroin.

Technically yes, in reality not at all.  Remember, a criminal case has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  You think in the above scenario that every single defendant charged wouldn't make the argument that it belonged to someone else, hence raising reasonable doubt in every instance?  This is why evidence used to acquire a warrant is so key to determining possession.  In the event of a spontaneous search prompted by reasonable suspicion, or a parole/probation search there will be other factors at play to determine possession.  Quite honestly, usually someone makes a spontaneous statement that it belongs to them.  Criminals aren't the brightest people and often talk themselves into trouble they could have avoided if they had just shut up.

Mr. Toast did not respond to my request for clarification, so I am not confident that I effectively understand the concept of "constructive possession."

In any case, it was not my assumption that if five kilos of heroin were found in a house full of people, it meant that "everyone in the home" would be charged.  

Rather, my assumption was that someone would be for sure. The police would not simply confiscate the heroin but arrest no one. When all was sorted out out, SOMEONE would eventually be charged for having it. 

But I'm not familiar with criminal law and drug busts and the like*; perhaps that does in fact happen. I'm imagining a police report in which police officers with a warrant to search for illegal weapons entered a home and found, not the weapons, but 10 people there and 5 kilos of heroin on the coffee table in the living room where all can see. But no arrests were made. Or arrests were made, but no charges could be filed because no one knew to whom the contraband belonged or where it came from. (These were all "bright" criminals and would not incriminate themselves; surely that must be the case sometimes.) 

(04-30-2021, 05:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fred is making a very poor, and bad faith argument here.  He refuses to cite any evidence that his proposal will have any effect on gun violence.  He has provided nothing but logical fallacies, straw man arguments and appeals to emotion.  Maybe you can engage with him in this regard and get him to provide an argument with some substance?  Lord knows no one else has been able to prod this out of him in this thread.

I have not followed this dispute from beginning to end. Perhaps he has indeed provided nothing but "logical fallacies and straw man arguments and appeals to emotion"--previous to his points about registration and constructive possession. But so far as I can tell, the points he made about them don't seem fallacious and the counterarguments don't vitiate them. 

E.g. the CP argument is not invalidated if ALL in a car or residence are not arrested and all attempt to raise reasonable doubt as to possession. I admit to little experience in such matters. If it is indeed common that NO ONE is charged in when 5 kilos are found in a residence, or to continue the analogy, if a presumed stolen weapon is found on the coffee table, then Fred's argument would indeed be weakened, though not completely refuted, since the police could confiscate an unregistered weapon at the very least.

As far as whether his proposal has any effect on gun violence, the question would be whether adding this tool to law enforcement would result in confiscation of more weapons from criminals. If it does then, then one must explain why reducing the number of guns in criminals' hands would not reduce gun violence.  Is there already data on that? 

*Not WHOLLY unfamiliar though. I was busted for possession of illegal drugs in South Dakota in '71. And I spent a week in jail until it was determined that I, in fact, did not possess any illegal drugs.