05-17-2021, 03:17 PM
(05-17-2021, 11:22 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It’s probably confusing during the Mike Brown tenure because he holds onto coaches much longer than he should, but coaches are usually let go due to performance. Poor performance, more specifically. Take the 2018 Dallas Cowboys for instance. Before the bye week, their record was 3-4. After the bye week, they went 7-2. The difference? They fired their new offensive line coach during the bye. His name was Paul Alexander. Since then he hasn’t worked in the NFL again. Because everyone knows “NFL” stands for “not for long” except when Mike Brown hires you. Both Shula and Coslet had to resign because Mike literally wouldn’t fire them despite how bad they were. It only took Dallas seven weeks to learn what it took Mike Brown 24seasons to figure out. (If Shula hadn’t resigned he still might be the HC because according to Mike, Shula did everything he asked him to do.)
So some years Alexander had less than one limited workout? Sounds like a really good argument for adding more scouts to the staff which WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT to which people took exception.
So if the Bengals ignored his draft input when he worked for them, why would they listen now?
List one offensive lineman the Bengals drafted which Alexander didn’t want.
Now that Carman is paying Paul Alexander to work with him, Alexander has more time to work with Carman? Wow, that’s shocking. Twenty five clients and if you look at his Twitter all 25 are exceptionally talented and draft steals. It’s almost as if he is paid by his clients to say good things about them . . . which, of course, he is. And Alexander does say nice things about his clients because . . . wait for it . . . they’re paying him.
I guess it’s just another one of those offensive line personnel decisions the offensive line coach mysteriously had no input into making.
Yeah, it’s almost as if the ability to identify those players with the skill to play is at a premium. And a coach can only develop so much.
This is what I wrote that upset you:
You asked when was I going to give Alexander credit. I just did. After the second round, he sucks. If you disagree, data will change my mind. Produce a list of players he drafted after the second round who didn’t suck.
Which also means during the first two rounds, he didn’t suck. So there’s the credit for all rounds of the draft. You just weren’t able to hash that out on your own unless I spoon fed it to you.
But, according to you, Alexander isn’t responsible for the draft picks, so why should I give him credit for something you just argued he isn’t responsible for?
You also just argued the players have an inherent talent level and that’s about it. So if that’s true, why should I give credit to Alexander for developing an inherent talent?
You’re talking out both sides of you mouth. One the one side, I need to give Alexander credit for his draft picks and player development, but on the other Alexander isn’t responsible for the draft picks or the player development. Make up your mind.
Show me the quote where I hated on him or are you just “straw manning”?
To further the discussion (in order)...
- I have ZERO doubts that PA's coaching methods were probably outdated after such a long career. No question. This doesn't negate the fact that he can see and identify talent or do workouts to get a good idea as to what a guy is capable of. I feel like that's a fair statement.
The Cowboys also fired Pollack and hired Mike Mcarthy. I wouldn't point to a whole lot of what Dallas does lately as a beacon of excellence or great ideas. They have stunk recently, regardless of the o line coach. I could never see PA's personality fitting in with Jerry Jones. That would make for an awkward sitcom/buddy cop movie.
- I didn't see your original point about scouts, nor did I reply to it. I would agree that more scouts wouldn't hurt the Bengals. I did not take exception to your scout ideas.
- I'm not saying the ignored his input. This is a HUGE problem with people today: Why do you create a 100% THIS or THAT, BLACK or WHITE world when having discussions about complex subject where we don't have complete information?
- Listing players PA didn't want would require me to have been in discussions between PA, Tobin, Marvin, & Mike Brown. Obviously, I wasn't in those rooms. But, in the same vein as your question, lets do something logical instead and draw a conclusion from a real life event: Marvin Lewis , THE LONG TIME BENGALS HEAD COACH & Mike Brown friend, did NOT want Jon Ross. The Bengals selected him anyway and told him to deal with it and make it work. Tobin, Brown, Scouts, or whomever above Marvin selected a player THE HEAD COACH didn't want.
^ Given the above fact of a real life example of hierarchy and coach influence within the Bengals organization, it shouldn't require any imagination whatsoever to think that a position coach would get players he didn't love or 100% endorse.
^ THAT fact being laid out there, no coach is 100% accurate on a prospect. Not in the history of the NFL has a coach or scout been 100% correct throughout a career when it comes to evaluating talent. To look at PA and hold him to that standard is absurd.
- You're right in the fact that PA is paid by agents to work players out. Guess what... EVERYONE YOU ARE EVERY GOING TO READ OR HEAR ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT NFL FOOTBALL IS PAID. Does that mean you ignore everyone's input? That's a very tin-foil-hat mantra.
- Again, we can discuss how much weight the O line coach has in making picks for the Bengals and what they do on draft day, but there's evidence all over the board proving and disproving how much. You are speculating negatively because it suits your predisposition towards the subject. Just like you saying PA is paid and, therefore, biased, you are negative, emotional, and upset at the pick and are.... THEREFORE BIASED.
- Now you're really moving the goal line around... Caraman was a second round pick... you admit that PA had good 1st & 2nd round players (in your fantasy world where PA makes the Bengals draft picks)... and then continue to complain about late round draft picks - which is off subject. How successful are any teams with late round O line draft picks?
This would require an enormous amount of comparative data showing Bengals draft tendencies, player selections by the Bengals, etc. to try and understand or piece the puzzle together. I understand your desire to simplistically look at things, but this stuff is not checkers... or Uno. The draft and it's machinations are complex.
- Again, and I'm starting to see your issue with PA... You think he ranthe Bengals drafts. No. I'm sure all of the coaches have input on the types of players they want and their opinions on guys. As evidanced by real life events, coaches don't always get their way and are overridden by Ownership, Tobin, and scouts.
^ Ok, I'll indulge you. We can play your game of imaginary and pretend. If, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, Paul Alexander was very good at selecting 1st and 2nd round players over his 24 year career with the Bengals... WHY TAKE EXCEPTION TO HIS SAYING CARMAN WAS A 1st OR 2nd ROUND TALENT?
- I don't understand your question or point here. Are you saying players do NOT have varying levels of talent and that coaches jobs are NOT to develop that talent? Please elaborate, because this seems like you're spiraling out of control at this point and just saying anything to be argumentative for the sake of being so.
- I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth. After reading your posts, you've given me a much better understanding of how you're thinking. You think it's a 2 sides thing. THIS or THAT. BLACK or WHITE. A or B. That isn't factual or based on any kind of reality. There should be ZERO question that PA had input on every Bengals O Line draft pick while he was in Cincinnati. How much input? We will never know unless he writes a book.... In which case, you'll just dismiss it as fiction because he made money from it. I like to read a lot... I'll let you know what he says in it.
^ 2 opposing ideas can be simultaneously true at the same time. The Bengals, with PA's input had some great draft picks and some not so great ones. PA developed some great players exactly how they needed and failed with some others.
^ NONE OF THOSE FACTS NEGATE WILLIE ANDERSON or PA's OPINION ON JACKSON CARMAN. We have to wait to see how that works out... like literally any other draft pick in the history of the NFL.
- I was speaking in generalities when I said "To continue to hate" meaning: I keep seeing it from Bengals fans.
