The Fight Against Fascists (I Can't Believe This Exists)

[Dill]

(06-13-2021, 01:56 PM)bengaloo Wrote: That depends on which news you read and which people you can open your mind to. I cant see it any other way. I've read and listened to both sides of this and from what I've gathered, there should be an investigation. I know people who feel differently but they havent listened to both sides with an open mind, which is the key. Voter fraud happens. Its just a fact of life in America and most countries who have elections. If the democrats are so sure Biden won, they should WANT an investigation, big time.

I agree with you that voter fraud happens. There is just no evidence that it happens very much. Maybe a few hundred cases over the last 30 years out of a billion+ votes. 

And there have been investigations of the 2020 elections in AZ, MI, PA, and GA. And investigations after those investigations.  They found no election fraud. Trump-appointed judges have found all suits over election fraud unmerited, and frequently made by people with no standing to bring them.

But one side has rejected those findings and is creating a new model--hand over the AZ Maricopa County machines and results to a team of cyber monkeys with no experience counting/assessing votes, led by a Trump partisan who firmly believes he can prove the election was stolen, and keep the press as far away as possible from this illegal recount as its "recount" violates control protocols.  Look for bamboo in the paper.

Then import this model to MI, PA and GA to keep the "debate" going over Biden's legitimacy.  

And you are telling me that having "listened to both sides," you now "can't see it any other way." You assert we should "want an investigation" whenever there is evidence of fraud, a point I agree with. However, the question is, do we have "evidence of fraud' just because Trump and Co. insist there is? Do we have evidence, beyond the say so of Trump or one of his supporters, that ballots came from China, or voting machines were manipulated--first from Venezuela, then from Italy, maybe from the Ukraine next? Can we be absolutely sure the problem is not with Trump and his proliferation of conspiracy theories, and his push to delegitimize and destabilize yet another central institution of U.S. democracy?

Bels has certainly closed his "ignorant" mind to the other side. He has wasted a lot of time actually studying our political institutions this elections consequences for them, rather than just feeling his way to the truth through news articles and tv commentary of people who already agree with his politics. 

But I haven't closed my mind yet. We do have some idea what has been going on with the AZ audits--e.g., the first faux pas, when the untrained counters were going over ballots with black and blue pens. We know that the press is not allowed to observe the count. We know that one goal was to look for bamboo paper. We know the count was illegal, that it has removed the election machines and ballots from their proper chain of custody, so now Maricopa will have to buy all new ones for the next election. 

Can you understand why I might have some concerns about the results of this audit, even before they are released? Do you understand that if they somehow "find fraud"--the finding of which no independent party was allowed to observe--I might be skeptical of those results in a way than I am not of the previous transparent and bipartisan recounts in AZ?